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Planthropology
Planthropology
116. National Parks, Leaving No Trace, and Touching Grass w/ Cassie Yahnian and Danielle LaRock
Cassie Yahnian and Danielle LaRock share the captivating journey of their podcast National Park After Dark, celebrating four years of exploring the mysteries, histories, and conservation stories of America's public lands.
• Former veterinary technicians who bonded over their shared love of outdoor spaces and morbid curiosity
• Transformed casual conversations about national park mysteries into a wildly successful podcast
• Use compelling storytelling to convey conservation messages and outdoor ethics more effectively than direct instruction
• Emphasize the importance of responsible recreation with current national park staffing shortages
• Highlight the humbling power of nature to provide perspective and grounding in our increasingly digital lives
• Recommend supporting national parks through donations and volunteering for trail maintenance
• Share personal favorite parks including Yellowstone and Grand Tetons, with deeply personal connections to these spaces
• Advise listeners to trust their intuition and prioritize time for activities that bring true meaning and joy
As always, thanks so much for listening! Subscribe, rate, and review Planthropology on your favorite podcast app. It helps the show keep growing and reaching more people! As a bonus, if you review Planthropology on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser and send me a screenshot of it, I'll send you an awesome sticker pack!
Planthropology is written, hosted, and produced by Vikram Baliga. Our theme song is "If You Want to Love Me, Babe, by the talented and award-winning composer, Nick Scout.
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What is up? Plant people. It's time once more for the Plantthropology Podcast, the show where we dive into the lives and careers of some very cool plant people to figure out why they do what they do and what keeps them coming back for more. I'm Vikram Baliga, your host and your humble guide in this journey through the sciences and, as always, my friends. I'm so excited to be with you today and this one is a twofer, two for one episode. It's wonderful because we have two guests today and they are the hosts of a wonderful podcast called National Park After Dark, which I'm quite sure a lot of you listen to already. It's great, it's huge. They've done such a good job with it.
Speaker 1:But I was so excited when they reached out a few weeks ago about being on Planthropology and telling the story of our national park system and our public lands and the ways that we should act in those spaces, as well as to celebrate their four-year anniversary of National Park After Dark. So this was a great episode and I got to talk with Cassie Yannian and Danielle LaRock and they were just wonderful. And it's interesting interviewing other content creators and the ones that I actually really respect and whose content I really like, because there's always that little bit of fear that what if they're awful? What if I meet someone that I really admire and whose stuff I really enjoy? What if they're awful? And I am so happy to report that Cassie and Danielle are wonderful. They're so much fun. They have a great amount of wisdom and experience and just a love for nature and the environment and making sure that you understand what it's like to be out in these spaces and also just telling really good stories. They're phenomenal storytellers and whether they're talking about something paranormal or a true crime or just talking conservation and discovery and the love of nature, they bring so much heart and so much soul to the episodes that if you have not listened to National Park After Dark, I strongly suggest that you add it to your rotation and check out everything they do.
Speaker 1:So I want to get you right into this wonderful, exciting and eye-opening and insightful episode. So grab your refillable water bottle, pick up your trash and make sure you have a good trail map and settle in for episode 116 of the Planthropology Podcast, national Parks Leaving no Trace and Touching Grass with Cassie Yonian and Danielle LaRock. Y'all thanks so much for being on Play. With your Apology, I have listened to National Park After Dark for a little while and I'm just such a big fan a national park after dark for a little while, and I'm just such a big fan and so I was thrilled about the opportunity to have y'all on and talk to you about national parks and everything that's going on. Cassie Danielle, welcome, and if you don't mind introducing yourselves a little bit and tell us where you're from, how you got into what you do, all that fun stuff.
Speaker 2:Of course. Thank you so much for having us. We're very excited to be here and excited that you listened to the show and we have a fun conversation today, so we're excited to answer these questions. I'm Cassie. I'm half of National Park After Dark.
Speaker 3:And I'm Danielle and I'm the other half of National Park After Dark. A little bit of background about the both of us. We both grew up in Southern New Hampshire and we met and crossed paths after college when we worked at an animal hospital together and we were both vet techs for quite a while, and that's where we connected and found our shared love of the outdoors and our curiosity with some of the morbid things that happen in the outdoors. And several years after we initially met, we both ended up going on different paths as far as where we wanted to live, so a cross-country move happened and separated us physically, but we decided to keep the conversation that we were already having going in the form of a podcast, and that's how National Park After Dark was born and we launched our first episode in January of 2021.
Speaker 1:Okay, so yeah, y'all just celebrated your four-year anniversary of the show, so congrats on that.
Speaker 2:Thank you. It was a fun anniversary, it was a big one. It felt. You know, we started it so long ago and we didn't know what we were. We didn't know what to expect from podcasting and of course it is a lot more entailed than we imagined it would be. But we've gotten into the group of things and the fact that we've been doing this for four years now it's just really. It's flown by.
Speaker 1:It really does. I started this show in oh gosh November of 2019, like right before the world shut down. I was writing a dissertation and I didn't want to, and so somehow I've blinked and it's yeah, years later. It's crazy how that happens. But, cassie, tell us a little bit about yourself.
Speaker 2:I am also like Daniel said. I'm from Southern New Hampshire but I currently live in Vermont. We, as she said, we met each other because we were vet techs. But I jumped around in my outdoor life a bit before that and before we met. So I used to work in outdoor education for a little while. I went to school for psychology, but I didn't. I used it a little bit here and there. I did a few jobs and eventually I realized that I really wanted to be in the outdoor space a lot more and so I switched jobs and I worked in outdoor education for about two years, which I really loved, and then I had a few jobs after that but eventually led me to Vet Teching with Danielle, where we discovered our love for the outdoors.
Speaker 2:And we grew up actually in New Hampshire, which has the White Mountains National Forest and there's so much hiking and beautiful places up there that we started having our friendship bring us up there as well and we did a lot of hikes and different exploration up there.
Speaker 2:And Danielle mentioned morbid curiosities, which is certainly true, but I will say I'm more of a history buff on the outdoor spaces. I really love to know the dark, the darker histories, because they tend to be a little bit more interesting spaces. I really love to know the dark, the darker histories, because they tend to be a little bit more interesting. But I really have enjoyed. New Hampshire has a lot of interesting history, which I think has fueled that love for it, and now that I'm in Vermont I'm exploring all the history that there is around here. But I am, I guess, a little bit about me travel wise. I am currently trying to check off all the national parks, which is not surprising considering National Park After Dark. But I've checked off 49 states and I have one left which is Wisconsin, so that's next on my list of places to go.
Speaker 1:Very cool. We just started doing that. My son just turned nine and a couple of years ago we were like, okay, well, before he's like an adult or decides he doesn't like us. Now, between now and when he's an adult, we should go hit as many parks as possible and we're only four or five in, but it's a fun adventure. It's so cool getting to see I don't know all this stuff and parts of the country that, like you have to go and it's just for that, and there's something about the intentionality of visiting these places that really gets me Like I really appreciate that about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, national parks certainly are very special places and they're fantastic to bring your families to, especially because most national parks offer very accessible options. But also there's just like this world of wonder that you're entering, like you're unplugged, you're often without reception and you get to go into these beautiful places and even though sometimes they can be filled with other people, you have to remember, when you look around, all of these other people are there for the same reason, which is actually really cool that everyone has come to this area because it's so incredible and so beautiful, and to be able to share that and make memories with your family is such a fun way to make it an even more special experience. Yeah, it's very cool to make it an even more special experience.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's very cool, so I like to. When I talk to outdoorsy people, I'm always curious do y'all keep, do you have houseplants, do you garden at home, or is it more like you enjoy nature where it exists? Because I get such a diversity of answers to this? I think some people are like, yeah, I like to go look at trees and animals, but they can stay over there, and so I was just curious if that's something you do at home too, or if it's just like a thing you go and visit and go and see.
Speaker 2:We both have a lot of houseplants. I currently have a Monstera that I'm very proud of. It is massive. I just repotted it a few months ago and I'm already like, wow, this thing is just getting out of control. But it's my like prized when people come to my house. I'm like come to my living room and see my Monstera.
Speaker 3:I am kind of on the other end of the spectrum. I do really well with cacti. Low maintenance plants tend to be my forte and I think it's because I haven't I wouldn't say I have a green thumb by any means, but I'm not terrible at keeping house plants. There's just a couple of things that I move a lot. So between actually physically moving these plants from place to place is difficult and also keeping up with the different. I mean I've lived in Washington state where it's a legitimate rainforest and things do really well there, and then I've been in Colorado where all of a sudden all of those plants that were thriving have whiplash and they have no idea. Now they're in the dry Colorado desert, Now I'm in Maine, so there's just it's hard to keep up with their needs. Also, Cassie and I travel a lot and I don't have oftentimes I don't have help around to maintain the plants when I'm away. So cactus tends to just really work for me because they're so low maintenance, they're so resilient, yes, and resilient.
Speaker 1:So I, yeah, I totally get that.
Speaker 1:I live out here in the almost desert and pretty much like at some point if it can't take care of itself, whether it's in my office, and I forget about it for embarrassingly, like weeks at a time, like I feel like I should be better at this, and I still completely neglected all my office plants over the winter break and now I have to replace some.
Speaker 1:But I get that too of okay, you're tough, you can make it like plants that thrive on neglect tend to do pretty well around me. So you talked about how y'all met and all of that, but I really want to get into national park after dark and talk about the show a little bit, because, again, it's a great show and I think a lot of my listeners probably either already listen to you or would really enjoy your show. So where did that come from? You talked about your sort of love of the morbid and the intersection of that with nature. But talk about the development of the show and how you got to where you are today, because it's huge. You've done a great job with it.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you so much. Yeah, we really appreciate that. As far as how National Park After Dark was kind of conceived was almost by accident. We did not go into this with formal plans, a business strategy, any sort of anything. We kind of just stumbled our way into it and we are so proud of where it is today. But it definitely had very humble roots. So, as we mentioned, cassie and I met and bonded over the shared love. So that's kind of where the foundation began.
Speaker 3:But to bring it back a little bit further to maybe where National Park After Dark really started to formulate in the background and subconscious, was a trip to Yellowstone National Park I took with my family in 2011. And it was a traditional, like multi-generational trip to America's first national park. You know, did all the traditional national park things that you do with people varying. We get into the park, we go to the visitor center and I headed straight for the book section, which both of us tend to do on our trips, and I picked up a book called Death in Yellowstone by Lee H Whittlesey and I read that book from cover to cover during the trip. So when I was going to these different locations and points of interest within the park. I was simultaneously reading about their dark history, and it just made the experience for me so much more layered and engaging, and it put a spin on these places that I would have never known before, and so that experience was great. It coincided with my own sense of morbid curiosity as an aside and interest in history, and that was that.
Speaker 3:And then so fast forward to when Cassie and I are having similar conversations in different locations, like the White Mountains or other places that are on our list of personal travel and things that we want to do in the future. We would be looking up coinciding stories of those locations to kind of give us that same type of Yellowstone 2011 experience that I had. So when we decided to move cross-country and form that conversation more into a podcast format, we decided to do just that. Let's pick a location and let's tell a dark history or true crime or animal encounter story within that park or location and share it on a public platform, because maybe there's people out there that would find that interesting as well.
Speaker 3:And we were doing this for a long time. After work, we worked nursing shift hours at the animal hospital and in the background, at 2 am, we would be reading and writing and researching episodes and with little to no idea that it would be such the success that it is. And of course, we've grown and evolved and we are no longer working as veterinary technicians. This is very much a full-time job, but we're so happy about it. So that's kind of how National Park After Dark began.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and I think for a lot of us that get into podcasting, that's somewhere in our minds like what if it blows up? But I think that didn't come for me until later and I'm still not there. Like I, I'm sitting in my office, my university. I went and talked to a bunch of undergrads about soil today, so I'm still very much doing the thing.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, y'all are living the media creator like podcast. People dream and that's so cool and it turns out. Yeah, there are a lot of people that love what you do and that agree that the sort of morbid, dark stories are fascinating and they are. It's so interesting.
Speaker 2:We certainly we didn't know that it was going to gain the traction that it did when we first put out the episodes. It's like our moms and our friends will listen and this will be great. And we just didn't. We couldn't have imagined how many other people had this like-minded this to them, that they wanted to hear these stories, because at first, like Danielle was saying, we started telling these stories and researching these episodes and we thought it was going to be all true crime. And then we realized, as we continued researching, that we love survival stories, we love dark history, we love the paranormal, we love anything. We found all these different sections and subjects within the outdoor space. Which is the common denominator that everyone loves are these outdoor spaces, but there's so many different types of stories that fall within that and I think that's where we found more of our success is that we found people from all different walks of life because they're interested in the outdoor space, not necessarily true crime, but they love survival or they love history or they love animals.
Speaker 1:So it's we've found all these different types of people who all come together for the same thing, and that's great and I think with part of the mission too, or what feels like it's part of the mission listening and I think just hearing y'all talk and having listened to the show for a while, I think it is that giving people such a great appreciation for, even for the people that maybe said, oh, here's a cool true crime broadcast and they get to learn about conservation, they get to learn about how important some of these public spaces are in our public lands are, and, like I saw a I don't know if it was on I'm not really on Twitter anymore, but on threads or something the other day someone said what is more American than the idea of national parks, that it's a space that's for all of us, and I think people don't think about that and y'all do such a cool job of weaving that together through the stories that you tell. I think that's really impressive.
Speaker 3:Thank you, thank you, and again, you know that was, that is such the goal. But we again had no. Like this is going to be our mission statement. Like you know, we had no formalized, crystallized thoughts of this is what we want to present and how we want to present it and what part of the reason we're so proud of our show is because that came on its own. And you know, you just saying that, like that's what you've gotten from listening to us, like that's what we hope for, that we're conveying, and to know that we're conveying that clearly through all the very types of stories that Cassie was just mentioning, like that is the ultimate goal. Because we started doing this, because we have a love and appreciation for outdoor spaces and wildlife conservation and making sure that we are very clear in our stance that the outdoors are for everyone and that everyone should be able to experience national parks and public lands, and we wanted to just create a space in the podcasting world to showcase that and to show how wonderful our wild world is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and to go off of that too. We've found we've always cared about leave no trace and conservation efforts and things like that. But you can scream into a microphone a million times and say, pick up your trash, and people are gonna hear you, but it doesn't really resonate. But then when you tell a story of something that happened that coincides with why you should care or I don't know, there's when you think of stay away from bears. That's a big one that we've talked about a lot on the podcast.
Speaker 2:You can drill into people a thousand times and put signs all over the national park that says do not approach bears. Bears are dangerous. But then when you hear a story of two people being mauled in the same park on the same day because of practices that were happening and how dangerous bears truly are, next time you walk into that park you're going to think and you're going to go oh, I'm going to listen to these rules. I'm interested in bear safety because I can connect it somewhere to something that I'm interested in and that I care about. So through our stories we've always tried to tie in these different, just not only lessons, but just information that can sometimes feel boring. To put it into a story that's fun and exciting or not fun always, but sometimes just really dark and morbid. People resonate with it more and you remember it a lot better that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, oh, absolutely. And storytelling is such a powerful tool, right, I think you look at human history and it's what we do, right? We tell stories about the world around us and so much of the folklore and the stuff that develops around these spaces is exactly that like cautionary tales, like instructive tales, those kinds of things. And I think, as with the subject matter you talk about, you cover a lot of ground, from the paranormal to the true crime kind of stuff. There's stuff that you, I think, have to, or it's hard to tread that line of. These are like real people that went through real things and all of that.
Speaker 1:And it's a delicate sort of balance to strike sometimes of, like you said, I think we listen to these stories, I'm like, oh, that was a fun story and I'm like that guy got eaten by a mountain lion. That's fun is maybe not the right word, but the experience is fun of learning about all this stuff and getting all of that information. When you all approach, can you trade off on stories, all of that information? When you all approach, you trade off on stories, all of that? So, when you approach telling some of these stories of whether it's lost hikers or animal attacks, what do you try to keep in mind? How do you build the experience you're trying to get across, just from a storytelling perspective?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great. That's a great point. And for our stories that we pick, we are very selective to your point about where there's a line of how to be respectful to some of these. We don't typically cover things that are happening currently, unless I should say there are some things that we do if it's really pertinent to our subject matter. But especially when you're jumping into true crime cases, we're not here to speculate or to put we don't want to just tell a story. To tell a story because it's interesting.
Speaker 2:We like to pick things that we can bring back to how we can be better stewards in the outdoors or bring forward some information that maybe you didn't know about. When we talk about a missing persons case or someone who got lost while out in a national park, things like that, where we can tie it in and make it more interesting, but also a reason for the story. It's not just I'm listening to this story because it's interesting. It's like we want to tell stories that people are going to walk away from and they're going to take something personal from it, whether that be inspiration to visit these places, whether it be more knowledge of these places, whether it's a book recommendation that they should check out. We just we really curtail our episodes to make it so that the listener can take something personal away from it at the end of it.
Speaker 3:And as far as what we do, keeping in mind, you know, when we select one of those stories with all of that in mind, we have those parameters and when we're really now focused on, okay, what falls within those parameters, what do I want to cover, especially pertaining to true crime, because that's you, you know where we initially began and I thought that we were going to kind of the lane we were going to stay in, quickly veered right out of that lane. But we still do cover true crime. But when we're doing that, we are very mindful of the stories that we're sharing and the why behind it, like Cassidy said. But we also always keep in mind if one of, if loved ones of that are related to this story, would list are listening to this episode right now, how would they feel? Are we proud of how we covered this story? Are we proud of the information we shared in the picture, how we painted this picture? So we're, and that usually pertains to two more current cases, which we don't do often, but even when we do, I mean I covered a case of the disappearance of a high schooler named Trenny Gibson that still has loved ones and surviving family. Yes, it's a very well-known case and well-covered case.
Speaker 3:I'm not sharing any details that aren't known to the public or aren't public domain information, but still, you never know who's listening and we want to make sure that whatever information we're sharing, in whatever way we share, it is respectful, and that's always like the biggest thing that we keep in mind when it comes to true crime.
Speaker 3:We don't want to just be adding to noise. You know, like Cassie said, we're not here to speculate. We aren't a news podcast. We aren't breaking any information that anybody else couldn't access on their own, so we just want to present it in a way that's a bit different. So that's how we kind of do true crime stuff. But everything else, yeah, we try and thread a lesson in in some way, whether it be respectful wildlife viewing parameters or leave no trace parameters or safe hiking tips and just things like that, and sometimes that medicine is hidden in a lot of sugar. So sometimes it's not like you end the episode and you could list three things that you learned, but it's subconscious learning sometimes and people are walking away with that knowledge and that's the best.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, and I think a great example of that honestly and I'm not just saying this because it's your most recent episode Okay, like, I listened to more than but your most recent episode, as we're recording this was the river ladies of the grand Canyon, and it was such a fascinating listen. It was so good, like pieces of history that I never would have heard, and so much good, I think, just context for the culture surrounding some of these things and what these ladies had to go through as they were really trying to explore and find so many cool things. That was just really enjoyed that one. I think that was a very good piece of history and storytelling there.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I personally I researched that one and I personally loved that story and I thought it was really interesting too, because I learned a lot while I was researching it. And I was shocked at one. I just I couldn't believe that the expectations of women studying plants were held to Don't go anywhere that you couldn't find a plant in your backyard Okay, where are you going to study any of this flora? And it was just, it was really interesting and they ended up being the first women to successfully run the Colorado River, but during it they were the first, they were two botanists and they were the first people to ever botanize the Grand Canyon and they found all of these different species of plant life that a lot of people had at the time been like, oh, it's a desert, there's nothing there, and it was just.
Speaker 2:I found it very interesting just how they were able to do that in the backlash that they faced because they wanted to, and then also the minds that were changed while they did it. The people who came forward and were like women shouldn't be there at the end turn around and were like maybe women do belong there and great job.
Speaker 1:Yeah, really story and you think about so. A story just came out recently that they found a new plant species in the back country at big bend. Just over the last few weeks and I actually just came from big ben, we were there for spring break and you think about these spaces that I don't know if y'all have ever been to that part, to that national park, but it's like I haven't. Wild desert, right, it's one of. It's such an interesting landscape, but without women like these two going out and saying, no, this is a place with incredible ecology, incredible species and a need for conservation conservation, I just I flashed that forward. However many decades and it's oh. No, this discovery is because of people like them, because they were brave enough to go to it, and that's just. That's the coolest thing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the information that is found by people who are willing to overcome these huge sometimes huge obstacles is really interesting. And then it goes down in history of what we will keep forever, like this plant species you're talking about that was just discovered. No one's ever going to forget that species now. It's always going to be in science books and it's going to be studied further and it's this huge opening to a whole new world which is really exciting. When you see that these new discoveries happening especially because I feel like sometimes the world feels like it's fully explored People are like we've been to every corner, we know what everything is, so when you find out that's very much not true it's exciting.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And, cassie, you were talking about how much you learned through this most recent episode and how much that meant to you. Danielle, do you have a favorite story, and I know it's hard to pick one, but is there something that really stands out to you over the years?
Speaker 3:It is so hard and we get this question a lot and I still don't have a solid answer, but I can answer it. More is in regards as a theme of episode that really resonates and sticks with me, and that's anything that has to do with human wildlife conflict, and the most popular episode that we have covered in that space is definitely Night of the Grizzlies, which Cassie alluded to earlier on in our conversation. It's a very popular story and very condensed version version. National parks in the past, in ages of old, used to publicly feed their wildlife and, in particular, bears. They did this in Glacier, in the Great Smoky Mountains and in other various parks as a form of tourist attraction. Park rangers would do this. They encouraged visitors to do it.
Speaker 3:It was a bad practice all around, but essentially that was the norm and at this point in time in Glacier National Park that was happening on a regular basis and it led to food-conditioned bears and bears who were starting to lose their fear of humans and starting to associate humans with food and understandably so and that kind of snowballed and as a result, two young women in two different parts of the park were mauled to death and partially consumed by two different grizzlies on the same night, and not only is that unbelievable and horrifically tragic, but it was unheard of, because up until that point, there were no documented grizzly maulings. And so that story in particular not only has a lot of shock factor and horrific details, but also there is this huge underlying lesson of why did this happen? Is this huge underlying lesson of why did this happen? Let's trace this back and see what culminated, what circumstances had to come together to create this type of scenario and what can we do to change that. It wasn't just these two rogue bears that had behavioral issues that were one-offs. This was indicative of a much larger problem and one that we were going to see in the future happen more often if we didn't change our behaviors and our relationship with wild animals and how we treat them.
Speaker 3:And that incident, as awful as it was, really sparked widespread change throughout the National Park Service as a whole different parks and the way that we recreate and rules that we need to keep in mind wherever we are when it comes to being good stewards of not only the land you know not littering, putting your trash away but also in the ways that we interact with wildlife and the implications that it can have if we don't follow those regulations, not only for people, but also bad things that could happen to the animals. And that's just a long winded way of saying I really love episodes that just showcase human wildlife dynamics and that there's usually a reason for animals attacking people if we really think about, you know, larger themes and that is shown in a lot of different ways throughout all of those different episodes that we cover that that center on animal attacks. So, yeah, that's definitely my favorite.
Speaker 1:And it's, yeah, really good reminders for sure, because again, I think and that's an interesting, just contextual story too about these places that are conservation minded we're feeding animals, like in public and doing all this stuff and how it leads up, and I think that's a cool story about the I don't know progress of science and the way that we approach knowledge and sometimes we don't know what we don't know and we do things because we don't understand them and then we know better and then we try to do better. I think that's really cool. It's a good time to take a quick break, I think, and then when we come back, I want to talk a little bit more about lessons we can take from nature and spending time from nature and how to be better. Like you were talking about students, I'll talk real quick and be right back. Hey there, welcome to the mid-roll. I'm so excited to see you here. Make sure you water your house plants and tell them. I said hi Y'all. How great are Cassie and Daniel. I've learned a lot already just listening to them and also, again, it's just been such a wonderful conversation and I really enjoy talking to them. But thank you for being part of plant apology. Thanks for all the comments, for listening, for following along, for sticking with us through so much over the past six or more years.
Speaker 1:If you want to support the show, there's a lot of ways to do it. You can go to plant apology podcastcom and find all things plant apology for past episodes, to contact information to merch. I would love if you did that and check it out. If you have comments, feedback, everything, anything else about the show, please email me at planthropologypod at gmailcom or you can hit me up on social media. I'm the plant prof, all the places and planthropology is also on facebook and instagram as planthropology pod. Go check us out, connect everywhere you. If you'd like to financially support the show again, you can go pick up some merch at the website or go to buymeacoffeecom slash planthropology and for the price of a cup of coffee you will pay for hosting fees and things like that, but also mostly coffee. Thanks so much to the Texas Tech Department of Plant and Soil Science and the Davis College of Agricultural Science and science and natural resource for letting me do the show and for being so supportive over all the years.
Speaker 1:If you are the review and rating type of human being, please do that. Go to spotify or apple podcast or podchaser anywhere else that you can leave a rating and review, and please do. I am partial to five stars, but you can be honest and maybe, if you're going to be too honest and like, give me a one star and just a frowny face, which somehow would be even more emotionally devastating. You just been straight out mean to me. Shoot me an email first, let me know how I can do better. I would love to do that. But again, if you have guest ideas, episode ideas, please let me know.
Speaker 1:Be sure to go subscribe to National Park After Dark and we talk about it at the end of the episode. But Cassie and Danielle also have a new show called Watch your Cook about the great accomplishments of women throughout time, and it's really just fascinating stories and I think that's something that you should subscribe to as well. So let's get back to the episode. We'll talk some more about national parks and how to be better users of public lands. We talked a little bit before the break about telling good stories, how that matters for nature, but I think we learn a lot from being out in nature, from just taking part in it. What kinds of things can we learn? What have you learned personally in your own lives, or just greater truths about the world, from spending so much time like you said earlier, cassie unplugged, without cell reception, and around trees and animals?
Speaker 2:I think it's so important to make time for it. Honestly, what I've learned is that one I feel a lot more at peace in the outdoors. If I'm stressed at all, a walk outside helps. Even if it doesn't fix my problems, it at least helps it. I think it's so important to find some type of connection with nature, even if you're in a city. There's parks you can go to, there's a tree that you could sit at a long walk every day, or make time to bring hikes into my life and make sure that I'm getting out and doing things that I really enjoy.
Speaker 2:Is the outdoor space such a wonderful, peaceful, reflective place to be? But there's also a really lovely community of people there as well. So if you're looking for friends or a community that you can trust, the outdoors is such a great place for that. There's so many Facebook groups nowadays that just have hiking in so-and-so community. Just type in your town and hiking and something will pop up.
Speaker 2:And I think that the biggest takeaway that I've really gotten from nature is that it's so important to. It's so easy to be so consumed in your phones and your computers and what's going on the news, and it's just so overwhelming and I feel like more and more we're taking so much screen time, but nature is so important to sit back and be like let's get grounded, let's reflect on what I need, what I want, get some of the stress, whatever I'm feeling out and actually be more present, and nature is such a great place to do that for me, the biggest thing that I've taken away from my time in nature is it is so very humbling and I think that being in nature is a wonderful way to remind yourself that you are not the center of the world and you're just a very small piece of it, and that is really hard to do in your day-to-day life without inserting yourself into a space that is such a huge reminder of that.
Speaker 3:I mean, everybody's day-to-day is all about you and your problems and what you need to do and your to-do list and it's you know, it's a very day-to-day life, for the average person, especially here in the United States, is very self-focused and it's hard to break away from that just because of the way that life is right now and how we things are set up. You know, it's no one's fault, it's just kind of is what it is. But being outdoors is the perfect way to remind yourself that there are other things going on in the world. It's not all about you. The world doesn't revolve around you.
Speaker 3:There's actually a lot of other things going on and when you look at nature you see that everything just plays a small role in the bigger picture and it's a great way to make that you know, implement that and weave that into your own life and it's just a great way to, you know, kind of zoom out and look at the bigger picture of the world, but also your world and your life. And you know, you don't need to have a big grand adventure and get lost and almost die and be like, oh my God, you know, it's just you can go for a simple walk in the woods and be observant and, like Cassie said, it's a great way to ground yourself and really reflect and for me, the humbling part of nature is what I take away from the most.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think humbling is a good word. So I just one of my hobbies is I do nature photography and astrophotography and I got out to. We spent two or three days out in far West Texas and there's an observatory out there and all kinds of stuff, but I think people never see the stars and I think we don't remember that sometimes. That you get out there and there's so much out there, not just in the parks but just in the universe, and being able to spend some time away from everything and just remember that, I think, like both of you said, is such a big deal. I feel like we would all be better off if we got away from city lights every now and then, If everyone was like okay, this is your week, go away and just spend some time looking at the sky. I don't know.
Speaker 3:Well, there's a reason in my mind that you know that comeback for. If so, you know, especially on internet on the internet comments, threads of things, when people are arguing and somebody's comeback that I always think is so perfect is go touch some grass. It's so true because it's like the root of that is go outside and ground yourself and realize, you know, like get in touch with reality here, and there's a reason that there's a connection to going outside and being in nature, like that. I think that comeback is so perfect Go touch some grass, it's awesome.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I laugh every single time I see that. But also going back to what you said with how you do astrophotography, I think that's a really cool moment when you were talking about it. What I was thinking of is when you're doing that and you're looking up at the sky, you are one seeing something that's so beautiful, but also something that's so much bigger than yourself. And it's this moment where you feel like this tiny little speck in the world and you just see how vast and beautiful the not just the world, but the universe really is, and sometimes that's just such a it sounds scary and explanation, but in practice it's such a really cool feeling to be like I'm just this tiny little speck in this giant beautiful place.
Speaker 1:Yeah and oh, and I that it's interesting. You say that cause I get that comment sometimes from people. Does that not freak you out? And like I think the first time it did. I grew up in the city and as far as it goes like it's not a big city but still you don't see all the stars. I think the first time I was like, oh my God, that's incredible and it does make you feel small. But how cool is it that? Like we're little pieces of all of that stuff out there and we get to look at it with our eyes and a camera and experience it and get to know how bears act in the woods and how bristlecone pines grow for 5,000 years, and all these things that are just little pieces of knowledge of our universe experiencing itself, and it's just, I don't know. It's the coolest thing to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, how special is it that we get to be here to experience all these very special and intricate pieces of nature in the world.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I think that's a good segue into talking a little bit about responsible recreation and all the stuff going on right now. Like our public lands are very much at risk, maybe more than they have been in a hundred years more than a hundred years and you know, with staffing issues, one week all of these people have jobs park rangers and the next week they don't, and they have jobs again and the whole thing is just crazy. But for me it drives home my responsibility as someone who uses the outdoor spaces. Would y'all talk a little bit about your thoughts on responsible recreation? As people who spend a lot of time out there, what should we be doing? How do we be good stewards of what we have?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's a great question and a really important one to bring up right now, especially just with the political climate that's happening and what is going on with our public lands and the staffing shortages. It's important for people who are recreating outdoors to understand what their responsibility is, and I think that people are going to have to be a lot more cognizant of what they're doing in the outdoors and make sure that you're cleaning up every piece of trash that you bring, because if you drop a wrapper and you think someone's going to pick it up, that might not be the case anymore. I think people have to be prepared that when they go to national parks, these bathroom facilities that are usually open at trailheads aren't going to be open anymore and you're going to have to make sure you pack a shovel and bring toilet paper with you, bring means to throw it away and be good stewards. Otherwise, you're going to be walking into really gross places, if not only you. If you drop a wrapper and you're like oh, it's just one wrapper, but there are 20,000 people visiting the park that day and 10,000 of them also drop a wrapper, that is, it's going to add up very quickly and I think people really need to consider all of the work that these staffing shortages are losing, and they can come in really small forms, like picking up your trash or making sure that you bring supplies to use the bathroom in the outdoors, but they also come in a lot bigger forms as well, especially when we're recreating outside.
Speaker 2:Some of these staffing cuts are going to impact are going to impact resources for search and rescue and for rangers that can come get you so now, and it's also going to impact how many people are going to be there to help you plan out your hikes. So not only are you losing some of your resources to find safe places to recreate in these parks that you're visiting, but also, once you go out there, there might be no one who can help you if you twist your ankle or you have a medical emergency or you're doing something extreme and you get very injured. It is something that you need to really think about now and make sure that you have a backup plan to self-rescue.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we spoke to several different employees from the National Park Service and the Forest Service regarding their employment statuses and their experience with this. All the events that have unfolded over the last couple of months and their biggest takeaways were just make sure you're doing everything we've already been telling you to do, but make sure you do it, because there are really big consequences, potential big consequences, if you don't Are very adamant with you. Know they want people to still go to parks. They just want them to be aware that their experience will likely be different, with longer wait times, being kinder and more patient with not only park staff that remains there but also other visitors. You know, be kind and understanding that if the trail is more crowded than usual or if there's trail debris that hadn't been cleaned up yet, just understanding that staff shortage is there, but also other visitors for that, and they're doing the best that they can.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And I think it's important to say too that these folks are still working so hard. Like I, we visited two national parks over spring break big bend and then Guadalupe mountains in again far West Texas and yeah, you could tell that they were a little wild around the eyes and tired and all that, but they everything is still so nice and so they're working so hard. And it's interesting you talk about being careful and thinking more about the risks we're taking because I'll be very honest, I would go and camp my wife and son. That's a harder sell. They're very much okay, but I don't have Wi-Fi here. My son is about nine. What do you mean? I can't charge my switch. I don't understand.
Speaker 1:But even like we were talking about hiking, or trying to like work towards hiking Guadalupe Peak, which is a pretty strenuous, it's like an eight hour hike, it's pretty tough, and then we started talking about it on the way home. That really puts into perspective like it's something we want to do, but with staffing issues and rescue and all of that, we really have to think critically about. Is this something we're willing to go and do, to see something that's just incredible, that two years ago, three years ago, we would have been just like I will do it. It's fine there's people out there to come help us, which maybe was not a good attitude then?
Speaker 2:Probably not, it was not a good attitude, then, but especially, it's very much front of mind, yeah, but it is almost like a security blanket where you know that there's some type of services out there.
Speaker 2:If something horrible was going to happen, of course you're going to do everything in your power to make sure it doesn't. But to have a security blanket of someone can reach me here, someone knows where I am, is really nice to have, and I think that there are ways where you can combat these issues that are happening, especially if you want to go out on some adventure that you've never done before. But now you really have to think about stuff like search and rescue and if you're prepared. But often in these areas there's local guiding companies that are more than happy to help you recreate in these areas, that know the landscapes very well, and that doesn't mean that nothing is going to happen and it's completely safe. You can't guarantee that, but at least you're with very experienced professionals who can make sure that you do it in the safest way possible. So there are ways around it, but it is.
Speaker 1:You have to make sure there are these considerations now that there are these staffing shortages so in in talking with some of the national park staff, and outside of one, being a little bit more thoughtful about leave no trace and some of the stuff we've been talking about, and also outside of just like buying as much as you can from national park gift shops, which those are just like such financial traps for me. I'm always like I don't need another mug. But I walk into a place and I'm like crap, like I've got another mug. I don't know where to put it. In talking to these employees, are there other things we can be doing? Is there some like mutual aid programs, like how else can we help?
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's also a really good question. There are lots of ways to help. There's monetary ways that you can help the National Park. There's the National Park Foundation, which you can directly donate to. There's also the National Forest Foundation if you're recreating in national forests, that you can directly donate to. But more often than not, these places need volunteers and it's not just national parks that need them. It is outdoor spaces all around you. If you don't live near a national park, looking at a state park or a national forest or whatever, there are so many volunteer opportunities out there that are trail clearing, they're trash pickup, they're people to help give information at the information office. There's so many little volunteer opportunities that exist that I think are such a crucial way to help, especially in a time that there are such staffing shortages.
Speaker 1:Wow, I looked at the time and we're at 54 minutes, so this has gone pretty quick. Just fascinating talking to y'all. But as we start thinking about wrapping up here, I just have a couple of questions. I want to ask and this is probably one you get all the time but what is your favorite national park and why? Problems? And we lost part of her answer to this question. But basically she went back to what she talked about at the beginning of the episode, where she mentions the yellow stone is currently her favorite park and it's because of her history there, in her memories and stuff there. But then she does go on to elaborate a little bit more and I'll let her do that. I just want to let you know that there was a portion here that got cut out. Okay, back to daniel.
Speaker 3:But that aside, I really love all the wildlife there and the different efforts for reintroduction of certain animals there, specifically the wolf, kind of like stepping stone for people to. It's kind of like a great introductory park as well as a park that could serve for the most experienced park goers, because most of the park well over 90% of that park is backcountry and most visitors never see most of Yellowstone. But for the people who do go and see that you know one to five percent of the park it's so worth it and it's so beautiful and it has all of America's iconic wildlife and it just serves as such a great experience. And of course I have sentimental ties to Yellowstone as well. So that's my reasoning.
Speaker 2:And my favorite one is right next door. I really love the Grand Tetons. It is somewhere that I've had really wonderful experiences in. I had a lot of first experiences there. I would say it's the first national park I've lived near. It's the first national park I ever went rock climbing in. It's the first national park that I saw in Mooson, which was exciting. I just had a lot of firsts there and it's so beautiful that I also. I guess there's a lot of sentimental value that goes into my reasoning there. However, I will say that I think that my favorite national park will be Glacier National Park in Montana once I go there but I have not. I am going this summer, which is very exciting. So I'll have an update if it's my favorite or not. But I just have a. I have a a sneaky suspicion that Glacier is going to one up the Grand Tetons once I get there.
Speaker 1:That's such a beautiful part of the country. My wife and I one time went to a this is going to sound weird, but a destination wedding in northern Idaho and we thought our friends were out of their minds. We're going to make us fly to Idaho and you get up in the mountains and it's an hour and a half or maybe an hour south of Glacier or near Glacier up there, and it's just incredibly beautiful that that part of the country yeah, the mountains are just, they're magical, they truly are I can't wait there.
Speaker 3:I know our calendars are marked for the summer, but I think that's a big, a big part of the national parks you know kind of tying it back to the beginning of the conversation when you were saying how you know this is like national parks are like, so they're so important, but they're also like what is more American, you know, than a national park and like the.
Speaker 3:The beautiful part of about the U S national park Service in particular is, cassie and I have been all over the world on our own and together and with listeners and we've been to so many different wonderful places. But the US I don't know if we really understand, like, how good we have it here when it comes to our public lands. You know there are certain parks and things like that internationally that are great and beautiful and just as stunning, but the amount of the temperate rainforest in Washington and then go over to the beach in Maine and to Acadia and here there's just so many different places to have so many different experiences. All within this, this, you know, wonderful idea that is national parks and that's just the best part is like it is hard to pick what our favorite is because there's so many options.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, and you know it. So, just hearing y'all talk, my son so badly wants to go to yellow stone and I think that's where we may try to get there this summer. It's 17 hours away, so it may happen, but we I may get to go to acadia this summer too, which will be nice in when it's 170 degrees in Texas. I'm going to get out for a minute.
Speaker 2:I'm doing Glendale feel nice and when it's that warm there. Yeah, and Acadia, I will say Acadia is pretty high on my top list. I could call it a very close second to Grand Tetons, and only because I was so shocked at Acadia I just when I got there, it was so magical and it's it's pretty small in comparison to a lot of other parks, but there's just so much packed into this small area and it's just really lovely to be there. So if you're, if you have a chance to go this summer, you absolutely should.
Speaker 1:Very cool. So, as folks that make a podcast, sometimes about spooky stuff, I always like to ask, when I talk to anyone who works in this space, like, what's the scariest is maybe not the right word, but what's the most unsettling story you've heard? And just like in a nutshell, so I'll just real quick. I was like I should go and listen to all the episodes for parks I've been to and that's been very fun. I've been listening to some of your back catalog. So I listened to one from years ago about Big Bend and I don't want to spoil it, but the whole time I was just like, oh my God, people are what's what.
Speaker 3:People are brutal.
Speaker 1:Brutal, yeah, out there right. What story has given you that reaction the most?
Speaker 3:God, another tough, tough question. It's so difficult because there are so many different categories of you know. There's the people, true crime, oh my God, like what are we capable of doing to one another? To Like spooky stuff, paranormal, creepy, or you know? Historic lessons of like God? We seem to be repeating the same mistakes over and over. So it's like, where do we go with this? I think that I don't know if you have an answer, cassie, but mine, just that comes off right off the bat that I've been thinking about actually kind of a lot for an older episode, and I think it was a bonus episode too, so it may not even be on our main feed, but I covered a story a number of years ago about a woman named Jane Constantino.
Speaker 3:I covered a story a number of years ago about a woman named Jane Constantino and she was a young woman that was at the moment, at the time, in her 20s, living in Colorado, and she was an avid outdoors woman, super young, bright, ambitious person, and she had the idea to bicycle from Colorado to the coast of Washington state and she had done big bike trips before. This wasn't her first one, it was just another adventure she wanted to do, so she did it and she was within yards of her destination, at the shores of this beach in Washington, an Olympic National Park, at the shores of this beach in Washington, an Olympic National Park, and she was brutally murdered at random by another park goer. She did not know this person, there was no reason, it was totally random. Other park goers saw, didn't see the actual crime, but saw him leaving the park with blood all over him, him, and they just assumed that he was picking berries. And because you know why would your brain go to? He just brutally murdered someone and he's casually walking on the trail back to the trailhead.
Speaker 3:So that one gives me the creeps a lot, mostly because I can see myself in this young woman, not because I loved a bicycle, but because, you know, this is just someone who loves the outdoors, wanted to experience it, wanted to do something for herself, was minding her own business and was, you know, just had her life cut short for no reason. And you know, I think that's something we come into a lot or run into a lot is, you know, fear of recreating outdoors, especially as solo women. And you know there's a lot of arguments about you know why that's valid or not, but yeah, in short, just seeing you know what the dark side of what could happen in the outdoors as anybody man, woman, child you know, bad things happen to people, no matter where you are, and a lot of times we try and focus on the good parts of nature and why you should be there and but also keeping in mind things that can happen is gives me the creeps for sure yeah, that's totally reasonable I guess, for mine goes in.
Speaker 2:Uh, I have two. I guess that bother me that we've covered both stories that I researched and neither of them are true crime. But one was also a subscription episode, so it's not on our main feed, but we talked about the Nutty Putty Cave in Utah. I don't know if you've heard this story before. It's very popular and a man was going into a cave I don't love caves anyway, or small places, I'm a little claustrophobic and he was what is it spelunking? He was doing that and he went. He got lost in the passageways and he wedged himself where he was upside down. But the way where his head was down below his feet and the way that he was wedged, he couldn't bend his legs. He would have to break his knees to bend his legs to get out and they called search and rescue.
Speaker 2:But what was so horrific about this specific incident was that search and rescue got to him and they stayed with him for a really long time and they were trying to find ways to get him out and they couldn't find anything. They were doing everything they could. It was he was in such a tight space, in such a dangerous area. They were trying their best and he was even on his. He was even on a phone talking to his wife who was at the top of the cave, like they were really only a couple of feet away from each other. But the search and rescue couldn't get him out in time and he died because all of the blood rushed to his brain and his heart and he ended up. I think he had a heart attack was his official cause of death. I'd's been a while since I've looked into the story, but that one in particular has always sat with me because Rescue was there, rescue was trying and it still couldn't help him in the fact also that he was on the phone with his loved ones and there was so much hope that was happening during this whole story and then for such a devastating outcome, I just that one's always been pretty tough for me. And then my second one to also get dark and awful.
Speaker 2:We covered another story where I covered a plane crash that happened in washington dc where they crashed into the river there, the Potomac River. The plane wasn't de-iced properly and it took off and immediately nosedived into the river and it was the middle of wintertime and search and rescue came to pull them out but it was in the middle of the city. There were tons of onlookers, people were trying to jump in after Some of the people did get out of the plane and surface. But it was this huge rescue mission. And that one personally has sat with me because I don't love flying. Even though Danielle and I do travel a lot, as she mentioned, I don't like flying. And now, especially in the winter, I'm like looking at the plane, so like did they de-ice the wings? I'm like looking at the planes. I'm like did they de-ice the wings? I'm like doing my own inspections, even though I have no idea what to look for. But that one's also sat with me. A bit of oof, that was really tough, oh man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, like I, one of my favorite national parks is Carlsbad Caverns. It's just the coolest thing.
Speaker 2:But then I watch some of these like extreme caving videos. I'm like, where does this get fun? That's not. That doesn't do it for me. That's not. Yeah, a big cave I'm cool with. See the bats and Carlsbad and all the different stalagmites and stalactites and stuff Great. But I just don't like small spaces. So I agree, like the spelunking, where you're really like wedging your body into these holes in the ground and hoping you can find your way back to surface is not for me.
Speaker 1:No, thank you. So just to round things out and wrap up, if there was a piece of advice that you could or that you wanted to leave our listeners with whether it's about the outdoors or favorite coffee order, really whatever what would that be?
Speaker 3:This is a great question and I don't think my answer really is outdoor specific, but can be applied to the outdoors. The biggest piece of advice I have is to listen to how your body reacts to different circumstances, different situations. Whenever you have a big decision or that saying of like, what does your gut tell you? That's there for a reason. I'm big into listening to your intuition and paying attention to what the universe is trying to tell you, and I think that your body knows the answer and your heart knows the answer before sometimes your mind can catch up and so often we complicate things by thinking too much about it when we already know the answer inside of ourselves. And I think if we paid more attention to how our body reacts to things is it a yes, is it a no? We would cut out a lot of the confusing parts. So that's my advice is to just stick with leaning more into how you feel about things at a body, soul level, before your mind makes things more jumbled.
Speaker 1:That's really good advice. I think that's good advice.
Speaker 2:Beautifully said. I guess for me, my advice would just be that your time is your most valuable asset and to use it wisely and to use it in a way that makes you happy. I think that people make excuses very often of I'm so busy, I can't do this, I'm too distracted, I'm too tired, Whatever it is. If you love the outdoors, find time to do that. If you love reading, spend time to do that. If you are sitting here and you're thinking I'm not spending enough time with my family, prioritize that. I think that and me included, 100% me included there's these times where I'm like, oh, I'm just too busy for that, and then you slowly lose yourself in what's important, and I just think that it's so important to prioritize things that are meaningful to you and don't prioritize. Of course, you have to prioritize your job in ways that if that's your livelihood, but just to make sure that you are actively making time for things that are important in your life.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. Also very good advice. Thanks so much for being on. I have thoroughly enjoyed this. It's been just a genuine pleasure talking to y'all and getting to meet you. As we finish up, plug your stuff. What do you have coming up? Where can we find you? What else do you want to put out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if you want to check out National Park After Dark, we are on Instagram. You can check us out there, but also we are on every podcasting platform that exists, so you can check us out anywhere there. We have our website, which is npadpodcastcom, where we have a Trail Tales edition where you can send in your own stories, and there's a submission link there. Also, for new things, new endeavors that we are up to at the moment is we just launched a second podcast which we have created. It is called Watch what Cook and it is a podcast that is all about women throughout history that have done really incredible things but have maybe not gotten the credit they deserve, and it's from inventors to activists to criminal masterminds just women who have really broken the glass ceilings on what women quote unquote should be. So that is coming as well. That airs April 9th and then will be every Wednesday. So we have, I guess, if you like National Park After Dark and you want some more, we have the second podcast as well.
Speaker 1:Very cool. It sounds great. Again, thank you so much. I hope actually I think, as this drops, your show would your new show would have just launched. So if you're listening to this, go check that out. And again, thanks so much for being on. This was great and I wish you all the best. Take care.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. This was a great conversation.
Speaker 1:Y'all, I hope you have the time this summer, or whenever you listen to this, to get out and experience our national parks and just our public lands in general. There is so much space that's out there for you and it's beautiful and it's precious and I hope that we experience it. I hope that we enjoy it and I hope that we help protect it. Thanks so much again to Cassie and Danielle for their time and their expertise and their wonderful insight. You two were just wonderful guests and it means just so much to me that you wanted to be a part of it and that we got to hang out and chat. Thanks again to the Texas Tech Department of Plant and Soil Science and the Davis College for the support of the show.
Speaker 1:Plant Anthropology is hosted, written, produced whatever else there is to do by me. Our theme music is by the award-winning composer Nick Scout and our mid-roll music is by my buddy, Rui. If you have not checked out his episode, you should go do that. It's great. But most of all, thanks to you for listening. Thanks for being part of the Plantthropology family. I hope that you are being kind to one another, especially now. If you haven't to date, maybe that's a good thing to try. Go do some of that, Keep being really cool. Plant people, Keep being safe.
Speaker 2:And I'll see you next time. Thank you.
