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Planthropology
Planthropology
103. Plants Out of Place, Chalkboards, and Controlling Weeds w/ Dr. Peter Dotray
What's up Plant People?! I have a great one for you today with one of my former professors and current colleagues, Dr. Peter Dotray. We had a great conversation about life as a professor and academic, what's changed over the years, how do we define a "weed," what role do they play in agriculture, and how we can go about controlling them. Dr. Dotray is a kind, empathetic educator who has a wealth of experience and knowledge about agriculture and how we can approach some of our future challenges with growing good plants so we can feed and clothe the world!
As always, thanks so much for listening! Subscribe, rate, and review Planthropology on your favorite podcast app. It helps the show keep growing and reaching more people! As a bonus, if you review Planthropology on Apple Podcasts or Podchaser and send me a screenshot of it, I'll send you an awesome sticker pack!
Planthropology is written, hosted, and produced by Vikram Baliga. Our theme song is "If You Want to Love Me, Babe, by the talented and award-winning composer, Nick Scout.
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What is up? Plant people it's time once more for the Plant Propology Podcast, the show where we dive into the lives and careers of some very cool plant people to figure out why they do what they do and what keeps them coming back for more. I'm Vikram Bolliga, your host and your humble guide in this journey through the sciences and, as always, my dear friends, I am so excited to be with you today. Y'all, I'm really excited about today's episode. My guest was actually an old professor of mine from back in the day when I did my masters, and I don't know if I took any classes with him when I did my PhD, but I have known this man for a long time and he's always been one of my very favorite professors.
Speaker 1:So Dr Peter Doutre is a professor of weed science, which is maybe not what you're thinking. He actually studies weed control and pest control in agricultural settings, and he studies how to better control the plants that grow out of place and compete with the crops that we're trying to grow for food or fiber or anything else, which makes a better system that overall is healthier and we can produce more plants with less inputs. So Dr Doutre and I talked about everything from that what is it like to control weeds to? How has academia and teaching changed over the long years of his career? We talked about differences in the classroom and what it's like to teach from a blackboard or a chalkboard versus on the computer. We talked about the future of agriculture and so many other things.
Speaker 1:Dr Doutre is a kind, empathetic educator and I've always had a ton of respect for him and I've learned so much from him over the years. So this was a fun conversation. We covered a lot of ground, but we really talked about the world of teaching, the world of agriculture and the world of weed control, so I think you'll really enjoy this one. So, without any further ado, here is episode 103 of the Plantherpology podcast Plants Out of Place, chalkboards and Controlling Weeds with Dr Peter Doutre. All right, well, I am so excited to get to talk to you today. You know it's interesting. I've been doing this podcast for a while and I think I've talked to like my colleagues here the least out of everyone, so it's fun to get to have you on.
Speaker 2:I appreciate this opportunity.
Speaker 1:And why don't you introduce yourself a little bit? Tell us where you're from, what you studied, what you like to do as a kid, whatever you think is interesting.
Speaker 2:All right, you want the long version or the short version, whichever, the medium version.
Speaker 1:The medium version.
Speaker 2:Okay, so, peter Doutre, I'm a professor here at Tech and I also hold a joint appointment with Texas A&M AgriLife Research and Extension Service. I've been in my role since 1993. Okay, prior to 1993, I grew up in South Minneapolis, so I'm actually a city.
Speaker 2:Kid had a love of the outdoors. For my parents and my mom's side of the family they were farmers. So I would spend my summertime on the farm picking rocks first, walking sugar beet fields, detasteling corn, and then for seven summers I worked for Green Giant. So it was kind of fun where when I would come back from the summertime my city friends would call me a country bumpkin, but yet when I was out in the country they would call me a city slicker. So it was almost like I never fit in where I was. But again, love of the outdoors, love of the farm, didn't grow up on a farm. My grandfather told me that if I ever wanted to farm I needed to go to school and get an education, because banks would unlikely loan me money unless I had an education. So that was my grandpa's way of, you know, suggesting I should pursue a further education. And I did, and I quickly learned that I did not want to farm, but I want to work with farmers and I feel like that's still what I'm doing today.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So where did you do your schooling, was it?
Speaker 2:did you stay close to Minneapolis or so the first school right out of high school was a state school in Southwest Minnesota and I learned that folks there like to have fun first and maybe study a little bit on the side. So I lasted one semester, okay, and then I transferred back to Minneapolis. In the Twin Cities they have actually Twin campuses. The agricultural campus for the University of Minnesota is in St Paul and yeah started. There was working 32 hours a week at a gas station Wow, and my grades showed. And then I found an announcement looking. They were looking for a student worker in a weed control in soybeans project. The man in charge was Dr Bob Anderson, who very influential person in my life and was working in his program and of course, took some courses in weed science and plant breeding. And pretty much at that point it was you made a decision in agronomy you were gonna be a plant breeder or you could study weed science, and the professor in weed science was far better than the professor in plant breeding, vikram.
Speaker 1:These are all true story no, there you go.
Speaker 2:And I decided you know, working with graduate students as an undergraduate. I thought that's what I wanna do. I wanna do what those students are doing. So I went to the major professor, dr Don Wise, and I said I wanna be a graduate student in your program. And he said oh good, what's your GPA? And I said, well, I just got it above a three. And he looked at me and he said why would I take a guy like you? You know you're not serious enough. So he didn't take me. He was helpful in sending me to Washington State University where I pursued my master's and then the beauty was did pretty well there. My Minnesota advisor came and brought me back, so finished my graduate career back at the University of Minnesota, finished my PhD there and then had been in Lubbock, texas, ever since. So there's kind of a long answer.
Speaker 2:Maybe not so long but, that was kind of my path until I came here.
Speaker 1:No, that's interesting. So this was your first, I guess, like academic job here at Tech.
Speaker 2:It was interviewed for a few industry groups, probably halfway, two thirds of the way through my PhD, just to kind of get some interviewing experience. I think I learned I wanted to work in academia, had opportunities at the very end, one at the University of Nebraska at one of their research and extension centers, and then this opportunity here which allowed me to teach and then do research and extension. Dr Dick Ald was one of the folks that brought me to Lubbock and that's another story. If I can digress for a minute, I think this is important for some folks to know. So the position here was open. I applied and I did not make the shortlist.
Speaker 2:So they brought in three other folks and I knew two of them, still know two of them quite well. The person that was offered the position her and I went to school in the Pacific Northwest and she turned it down. So they went back into the pool and tried to find somebody who was most similar to her and that was me. So maybe I was kind of the number four person for this job. The first three interviewed, they tried to get the one and they went back in and brought me in and then pretty quickly an offer was made and here I still am.
Speaker 1:Well, that's cool. I mean, it's cool that you've gotten to spend your entire career in one place, because I feel like that's not super common in academia, at least not anymore.
Speaker 2:I think you're right and I guess my analogy there. I think of some of my sports idols and some of them played for one team all of their career. I feel like these days that's pretty rare. Probably the same thing with younger professionals coming out. They're gonna move around a little bit more. I've enjoyed my position from the beginning. I felt very fortunate and opportunity to do everything that I like to do to teach, to do research, to have an outreach extension program. They all kind of feed off of, I think, each other. They all provide new opportunities to be better in those other areas. I also feel like usually by the time the semester's over, I'm not only are the students ready to go, but I'm ready to go as well, and then into some field research, and then by the end of summer I'm anxious to get back into the classroom. So I do feel fortunate that I get to do again three things, three very different things, but really they all kind of tie together very nicely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super cool. I wanna go back to something you said just a minute ago and your story about your interview process, because I think that folks that are sort of outside the institution, so to speak, these academic interviews and this whole process is it's really something, like it is something, and you mentioned that of these candidates, the number one pick said no, for whatever reason. There's always reasons and, like these searches, I've only done one interview of that kind, but they're kind of grueling, like it's a lot.
Speaker 2:I mean they are grueling Vikram, I'd say. Like so many things, I think things have just gotten tougher over time, but even way back when it was a two day process, very tiresome, lots of folks.
Speaker 2:You finish a 30, minute, 60 minute session and then the door opens and the folks in the room leave and the next group comes in, or they bring you down the hall and you've kind of got to be on your A game all day for a couple of days and then the funny thing is an opportunity to look back at the people that you didn't know that were a part of the interview. And then some of those folks right now are well. They were good friends of mine. Most of them have since retired, but first impressions are so very important and I remember some of those very first impressions of folks that then became good colleagues and good friends and, as I mentioned, many of those have now since retired. I'm one of the more senior folks right now here in this department and have had a great opportunity to work with some really good people in this department and also at Texas A&M AgriLife over the years.
Speaker 1:That's awesome. So, talking about your specialty a little bit and what you work on and I'm not saying this just because you're sitting here, okay, I took both of your classes during my masters, so we've known each other quite a while at this point. I did my masters 2000, gosh 10 through 12 and then left and worked for extension for a few years, came back, but I think your two classes were two of my favorites I took here, you know, and I found the content really interesting, which I think people who it's like weed control, you know like it's fascinating. There's so much to it. And then also, I think, just your manner of teaching and just your presence in the classrooms very good. And I wanna talk about that a little bit more later.
Speaker 1:But getting into talking about, like, what you do and your specialty and talking about weeds and weed science and all of that, there is a lot of things I see online, you know, because I've been a lot of different spaces where people argue about like what is a weed, what's not a weed, what constitutes what we should do in an agricultural or in a home garden setting. So can you give us the short version or the slightly more detailed short version of what is a weed?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. First I'm going to say thank you for the kind words and, yes, maybe you are saying them because I'm sitting right across the table, but I appreciate that and comments like that from students, past students and current students really do help, especially on days when you know things aren't going quite so well, and always I think folks may kind of wonder you know, am I doing what I'm supposed to be doing? Anyway, if the classroom experience that you had with me was a good experience, even you know, so many years later you still remember some of the content and maybe some of the mannerisms. Again, I appreciate that. So back to the question what you know.
Speaker 2:What is a weed? So? And I often like to provide some definitions from different groups. A philosopher's definition may be a plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered. You know, the homeowner may say a weed's, you know, unsightly or simply a nuisance. An agronomic definition, and maybe the simplest and most common definition would be it's a plant out of place and some plants that may have lots of beauty, like a morning glory, and folks may plant morning glories and they may grow up trellises or up, you know, mailbox posts, and there's a lot of beauty to morning glories and I would say many other weeds. But if that particular weed is growing where you don't want it, if it's growing in an agronomic field where you know there are limited resources for plant growth you know there's, especially in this environment. There's limited water, there's limited nutrients, there's limited sunlight and whatever those plants that are now growing where they're not supposed to be growing, whenever they're using some of those consumable limited resources, that's taking resources away from the plant that we're trying to grow and trying to produce some something you know, possibly the grain, possibly the fiber, possibly, you know, some fruit. We're probably going to be producing less because the weeds are using some of those resources you know.
Speaker 2:For the homeowner, where things may be unsightly, it may be just a matter of you know, what do you want your front yard to look like? Do you want it to be kind of a manicured type of appearance where there's just one type of plant out there? It's just Bermuda grass or it's just a fescue? Do you mind if you dandelions out there a few spurges? And if you don't want those out there, then truly those are plants out of place and you know the desire to get rid of them may be a lot stronger than the other person that's just looking for something green out there and diversity may be good and a little bit of grass out there, but a few other broad leaves and a few other types of plants is going to be okay. So plant out of place is probably the most universal definition and you know a lot of that is just up to the homeowner or the occupant of that area to decide if those plants can stay or if those plants need to be removed.
Speaker 1:It's yeah, and I think that's a really good answer. And you know, when we talk about weed control or weeds just in general, we really couch it in IPM, in our intro horticulture class, because we try to cover so much ground in there that we talk about insects and diseases and all that and weeds kind of together. But, yeah, I think anything you kind of don't want there for whatever reason, that could be, again, aesthetic or economic or whatever, and there are some, though, that fall into the category of like noxious weeds or invasive weeds. Is that like? Are those plants that are more like harmful to human health? Are there health concerns with what we consider noxious weeds, or are those just the really bad ones in terms of difficulty to control and stuff?
Speaker 2:Well, you know, a weed is classified as noxious if somebody just decides to put it on a list and a plan. Now that we just need to be more concerned about its presence, we may not know enough about control, we may not know enough about the poisonous characteristics, so therefore we better do a better job of trying to contain its presence. Many weeds or plants are poisonous. Those exact same plants may also have lots of nutritional benefits and properties.
Speaker 2:I've got lots of textbooks in my office, like you do here in your office. I've got a couple of books that are on my shelf side by side. One of them is called Edible Weeds and one's called Poisonous Weeds. There are many of the same genus and species in both of those. So definitely need to understand more of the health benefits that lots of our plants have, again, plant whose virtues have not yet been discovered. I think that would be part of a good definition of plants that we call weeds. But there may be some benefits to those On the flip side. Overnight they, as they produce berries or maybe are a little bit more mature now, may contain some substances that might be a little bit harmful to the consumer.
Speaker 1:That's really interesting. I think that's a good thing to think about, too, which parts of the plants we're talking about. A good example that I give people sometimes is a potato. We eat the tuber. It's safe, it's something we use widely, but the berries are poisonous. I think that that is a really interesting point, too. If you look at how native peoples in different areas use certain plants in different ways and things that were like. This is a bad plan as well. Not necessarily. It just is. The plant just is. Then where it intersects with our lives is where we make our value judgments.
Speaker 2:I agree 100%, as you were talking about noxious weeds or invasive weeds, I think new plants coming into an area. I think we need to be pretty cautious about the unknown. Likely they're going to displace something. The plant that they may be displacing may be something that has some pretty significant value. Could be wildlife cover, could be some wildlife feed. The new invasive coming in that may have a lot greater reproductive capabilities or just growth and development capabilities to out-compete, need to be pretty cautious before we let some of those compete naturally and likely replace what's already out there. We can classify plants in a lot of different ways, but I think those that have been put on a noxious list and those that are invasive and we may not know much about them, I think are those that we need to be most concerned about as they start to move into new territories.
Speaker 1:I think, when we talk about that too, the idea of needing to be cautious and knowing what we're doing is super, because I think of like kudzu. If you're someone listening to this in the southeastern United States and your dog stood still for too long, it's probably covered in kudzu, but that was, unless I'm mistaken, planted in a lot of those areas for erosion control. It just turns out that it was very, very good at it.
Speaker 2:That's a great example. Another example that I often like to use in the classroom and probably should have been more prepared for this conversation, but it's prickly pear.
Speaker 2:So, prickly pear was actually brought in I think it was from Argentina, originally brought into Australia, and they were using it as a live hedge or kind of a fence rug to try to keep livestock in and it quickly got out of control and was taken over landscapes. So it was something brought in, quickly got out of hand and then through biological control they were able to go back to the country of origin and actually find some of the native insects that would kind of burrow into the pads and feed on the pads and when they studied and then kind of introduced some of those insects in Australia, pretty quickly brought some of those populations down to a much more manageable level no eradication, but to a more manageable level. So I think bottom line whether it's kudzu or prickly pear or probably a number of other plants that are not specifically a part of this discussion we need to be careful when we introduce plants without really knowing the capabilities that they may have again at displacing other things in the environment that are much more of value.
Speaker 1:Well, I think that's a good segue too to talking about. Okay, so we have a weed right, whatever it is, whether it's prickly pear or morning glory or God forbid field-bind weed or pomeran or amaranth or something out in the field what do we do? Because I know there's a lot of methods we can use, but I think what people think is oh, there's a weed I have to spray chemical, like what's sort of the decision tree and what options are there for us if we're trying to deal with those problems?
Speaker 2:So on a worldwide basis. Still, you know, physical plant removal or weed removal is still the most commonly used method of weed control again worldwide. Pretty intense management required, but it can be done If our farms or areas that we're managing are small, if the workforce is high, then I think there's good opportunities to manage weeds in that way. I find physical removal of weeds to be a kind of therapy, where in the evenings I'm maybe out in the front yard and my dog's running around doing his thing and it's an opportunity for me just to kind of walk around, look for plants, some new plants that are coming in and I've got some neighbors that are really good at allowing those new plants to come in and then I'm going to choose to remove a lot of them just through hand removal or hand tools, some sputters and grubbers that may allow me to get a little bit deeper into the soil to remove them. So I just wanted to mention that really, first and foremost, I think as farm sizes get larger or areas get larger, there are certainly our opportunities to safely control weeds by use of chemicals. If time allows, I wouldn't mind spending a bit more time just talking about herbicides and how much that we know about herbicides and the difficulty it is getting products registered and the scrutiny that products have as they go through that registration process. So just right now, just talking about methods physical removal, chemical weed control there's mechanical control by use of rototillers or plows and discs and so forth that can be effective.
Speaker 2:I alluded to biological weed control earlier where we're using some kind of biological organism that may suppress another biological organism. Could be a fish, could be insect, could be plant on plant, but it's some biological organism. There are some good success stories. Unfortunately, there are really few and far between and this is an analogy oftentimes used and I don't use it, but here I'm going to use it with you.
Speaker 2:These are all tools in a toolbox and I don't feel like to solve problems every time we have to go to the toolbox and grab the hammer. But I think we need to decide what we need, examine the tools that we have and you mentioned IPM earlier. A good integrated approach to manage all pests and weeds are one type of pest is to look in the toolbox and think of how might I be able to use mechanical control and physical control. I mentioned biological and chemical. I didn't mention cultural earlier and maybe I should have mentioned that first. Those are kind of things that are to some degree decisions that the occupant of that area decisions that they make. It may be the variety selection, it may be the time when fields are planted, it may be mowing frequency and mowing height.
Speaker 2:It may be the water schedule, water amounts, fertility amounts, all things that hopefully will help get the plant of choice in its best growth state or condition, and that by itself is a means of potentially suppressing the growth and development of other plants and in this case weeds. So those are all the methods. I would say one method isn't better than another method. I would encourage folks always to look at all of these opportunities and see what might best fit their particular situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's great advice. You mentioned wanting to go in a little more deeply into some of the chemical control and I think that's important too, because there's a lot of fear and misinformation around some of these products, some of them. There probably is concern and we don't know sometimes what we don't know until years of research have gone on. But we have good data on all of these products and, like you mentioned, they go through extensive testing before they ever hit the market, all these products. So do you want to speak on that? Just a little bit, talking about, like, what does a chemical have to go through before you can go buy it at the supply store or at Lowe's or whatever?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean a lot of these manufacturers, and probably more so in the olden days, maybe not so much these days, but they used to have a significant part of their company on the discovery of new molecules that have herbicidal activity. So once a molecule is discovered, there are so many steps afterward it's the stability of the molecule, the formulation of the molecule, knowing it's going to have to go through lots of different environments before it's actually put into a tank and it's applied. A lot of toxicology work is done. What will its impact be on the environment? What is the impact on animals? Oftentimes mice are used as test animals and they're looking for, obviously, toxicity to those organisms and whatever levels are deemed to where there may be some harmful effects. Typically, the numbers that are then used for those products to be deemed okay for the registration process are thousands of fold greater than, or the amounts that we can use would be thousands of fold less than some of the damage that we may see, and that may be a lot more information than really what you wanted.
Speaker 2:Only wanted to use this kind of analogy. I think a lot of times folks think about herbicides as kind of this mysterious black box. We're going to take this chemical, we're going to apply it. Some plants may be affected. Other plants are not affected, but the thought maybe we don't really know much about that difference, why some are affected and some are.
Speaker 2:I would propose that we know a lot about the products that we're using. That black box really isn't that mysterious and we have moved more recently, and that is from the 1980s, to products that we're now using that typically are used at far less use rates than some of the initial herbicides, are far less mammalian toxicity than they used to have and they're just a lot more maybe versatile in how they can be used. We know oftentimes the pathway that is disrupted and there are many pathways that plants have that humans don't have and to me those are some of the most desirable products that I would like to use, knowing that what they're doing in plants they cannot do to us because the systems that we have are so different.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's such a good point. I think that is poorly and again, if you've never taken a class in something like this, there's no reason for a lot of folks to already know that. But that's poorly understood. I think in general that people just hear chemical and it's like this is automatically bad when everything is chemicals right. Ok, so meetup and we will see you tomorrow at a better week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean yeah, we could talk about a lot of cleaning products that are used in the home and on and on, and I would say, with crop protection chemicals we're probably a lot more similar to an insect and more similar to bacteria and fungi, I think some of the plants there are some pretty unique differences between plants and animals. I feel fortunate to be in the area that I'm in. We categorize our pesticides into different groups, groups one through four, one being most toxic, four being least toxic. Thankfully, I feel like most all products today that are going through the registration process and even those going through re-registration. The majority of those are in that category three, category four I remember some category ones and category two. Some of them are no longer available, Some of the other ones that we're still using. I think we've done a pretty good job at trying to develop systems where some of the potential exposure and the mixing and the handling process has really been significantly reduced or minimized.
Speaker 1:And I hope that's comforting to some folks listening just that there is so much testing, so much science and regulation that goes into this, because I think the ultimate goal is to protect the environment and protect the people that are consuming and working around these crops and all of those things. Human safety and environmental safety have become so much more. Not that it hasn't always been a goal, but I feel like we've gotten a lot better at it over the past 30 years.
Speaker 2:I think we have as well, and I think one of the final messages maybe I would like to address I want to be extremely respectful to all crop protection chemicals that I'm using. I'm going to be looking at labels to make sure that we've got the appropriate personal protective equipment and that just maybe some gloves could be, some eye shields, some face shields, some of the ones that maybe are a bit more toxic. There may be some respirators that are required, but I'm going to look at that label. I'm going to be extremely respectful in the mixing and the handling. There's postings that are necessary, there's reentry periods of time that need to be adhered to and I do feel, like a lot of the growers and applicators that I work with, I would consider some of the most environmentally sound folks that I know, for the exact reasons that you just kind of alluded to earlier, and I think they're definitely wanting to do the right thing and I guess that makes me feel better when applications are being made, that they're being made the correct way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super interesting. Well, this seems like a good time for a quick break, so let's do that. I'll play a midroll real quick and then we'll come back and talk more about weed control and some different methods for weed control, as well as have a discussion about academia. So we'll be right back. Well, hey there, welcome to the midroll. How's it going? How's your mom? How are the kids? How's your dog? Give him a nice pat on the head. For me, the dog, just the dog, it's not the others. That would be weird.
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Speaker 1:In the second part of this episode, again we talk about academia. We talk about different ways that we can control weeds. It's really a great second half of this conversation. I hope you stick around and listen to part two, or the second half of this conversation with Dr Peter Dottray. I'm curious to hear your thoughts. A couple of things before we get into more of our discussion on teaching and all that what are your thoughts on some of the newer non-chemical technologies for weed removal? When I say newer, that's again a relative term. There's a lot of media out there about electroweeding and these laser AI robots and stuff that'll go through a field and identify what's a weed and what's not and burn them out. Maybe there were not there yet in terms of them being widely applied, but what are your thoughts on those types of technologies?
Speaker 2:First, you mentioned electrocution and that is getting a good look. I think again, that's really some old technology that I think is circling its way back around. I think there are some opportunities to use some rope wick technology, which essentially uses products through ropes that are placed above the crop height or could be above the turf grass. I think some of those older technologies are also getting a look as well. When you mentioned AI, that definitely is new technology.
Speaker 2:I think they've made significant advances in allowing us to differentiate plants based on their fingerprint, which may involve the shape of the leaf, it may be the color of the leaves or maybe most importantly, what is being reflected.
Speaker 2:If you shine light on a leaf, what's being absorbed versus what's being reflected, and can we take advantage of seeing what's being reflected and know that we're dealing with a dandelion or we're dealing with a morning glory or any other type of plant in the field that it's growing in?
Speaker 2:I feel like originally that technology, there were opportunities, but at such a slow pace or speed through the field we didn't have the computer capabilities to run those algorithms as quickly as we needed to to essentially trigger a pulse of spray or not a pulse of spray, just because it took a lot of power to differentiate them. Now I think we're just that much further along. I've had an opportunity to work with some sea and spray technology. It's taking advantage of plants where they're growing, whether it's in the row or in the inner row space, and also trying to take advantage of some of the differences and some of that reflectance to allow us to maybe determine yes, this is a weed, let's try to remove it, or know this is a plant that is desirable and let's make sure that we're not putting any pulses of spray there.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting. I don't know you think about margin of error on some of these things and if you've got a machine that is only putting chemical or only putting whether it's a laser or a little bolt of electricity or a flame or whatever exactly where it needs to go precision agriculture I feel like that takes out a lot of those or reduces the potential for off-target applications and things like that. It makes us safer and potentially makes us just a lot better at what we do.
Speaker 2:Again. I think the equipment is getting better. I think the speed of making those decisions is getting better.
Speaker 2:I think right now, the price of some of those inputs will make it difficult for a lot of folks to take advantage of it initially, but I think there are some opportunities.
Speaker 2:Typically, we find weeds not randomly distributed but they're found in patchy areas.
Speaker 2:I think even taking opportunities of identifying weeds in areas to even then start making applications in a little broader area within where some weeds have been identified isn't a bad initial start, because weeds are patchy.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of that technology that we're talking about has to do with weeds that are already present. I think there's still good opportunities of controlling weeds before they ever emerge. It could be where there is still a need for some more broadcast applications initially, and then, as plants escape some of those initial treatments, then maybe we could go through and selectively remove based on the weed that's there already, knowing what chemical might be most effective at controlling that weed, instead of just having one or two chemicals in the tank. Some of this equipment may have 15 or 20 different potential prescriptions, depending on the plant that is being identified. I think the future of weed management will definitely include some of these types of intelligence and some of these robotics, but in the short term I still feel like we still need to be talking about mechanical and cultural and physical removal of weeds as potential inputs.
Speaker 1:For sure I. Just as an aside, I was at a grower meeting one time when I was with Extension. I don't remember it doesn't matter what company it was, but it was at. Some chemical company was having a grower meeting. The rep from this company that was giving a talk said I think the herbicide of the future is tempered steel. For someone from one of these companies to say that, I was like oh wow, that's an interesting thought.
Speaker 2:That comment. I hear it a lot when we talk about herbicide resistant weeds. I spent a lot of time these days talking about weeds that have changed and products that used to be effective are no longer effective. There's a variety of reasons and if that's of interest, we can talk about that some more. Anyway, then somebody will make the comment that so far, no weed has ever developed the resistance to that tempered steel, and that's absolutely correct, because the direction now seems to be more towards reduced tillage, strip tillage, no tillage, the comments about soil health and carbon credits and the desire to be working the land less typically. When we see less tillage, that tends to mean we're going to be relying more on other methods of control, and one of those other methods is the use of herbicide.
Speaker 1:No, that's interesting. I think that's a good way to look at it too, that there's always a trade off.
Speaker 2:There is always a trade-off and a lot of times in research and in science we tend to kind of focus in the one area that we were trained to study and don't necessarily take into account some of these decisions that are really a part of a much larger system. I think you know putting a good team of researchers together where everybody kind of has that little slightly different focus, and then decisions can be made now based on a variety of different parts to the system.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good thought for sure. With the time we have left, I want to kind of switch gears just a little bit and talk about more on the education side of things. You know you talked about research some and you know I feel like the basics of research haven't probably changed a lot over the years. The way that we do it, the processes, the pieces have changed. Right, we were looking at different things. You said you work on resistance management and all those things, but I think on the teaching side things probably have evolved a little bit over the years. Have you taught the whole time you've been here?
Speaker 2:Yes, I have taught. I remember the very first time I taught here on this campus, had a chalkboard, had some chalk eventually moved into, you know, transparencies and things that maybe were kind of created during the classroom setting based on topics that I knew had to be covered or questions that were being asked and really through, I think, distance education and we do so much of that here. I think the use of pre-made presentations through PowerPoint and other things that have really changed a lot of, I think, what we kind of bring into the classroom and maybe opportunities that we try to create where and not everybody does this, but there is opportunities, of course to share notes and share PowerPoint presentations and just make sure that they're available to students that maybe weren't able to capture everything within that 50 or hour, 20 minute period of time. I think that's a good thought too and a good comment, because you know the classes you teach.
Speaker 1:I guess a couple of weed science and then herbicides or modem mac of herbicide action, which I've used a lot of that information throughout my whole career. Like I've got to say over the past 10 years gosh, 12 years now I've been doing a lot of research on herbicides for 10 years gosh, 12 years now, being a county agent and professor now or whatever. Like I've used a lot of that information. I think about a lot of that, a lot still. But you know, there is so much information in those classes, like it is packed full of information and I like the thought that you give that. You know, having additional resources, whether it's PowerPoints or lectures or whatever, for students is important, because I feel like not everyone feels that way. I feel like there's some of our contemporaries, our peers across, you know, not here as much, but in some different places that are. I mean, you take the notes, you take and then that's all you get.
Speaker 2:I guess I have often felt like I want the students to leave the class with a set of notes that they can go back to and revisit. You know, of course, based on the profession that they're in, sure, and that has been one of the nice comments that I have received over time. When I run into former students and they'll make several comments usually but one of them will be that they appreciated the thorough set of notes that they were able to take away, because they have often went back and tried to kind of revisit or relearn some of those details. The classes that I teach. You know, there is just one principles of weed science course here and just one you know more detailed, you know kind of a biochemistry, physiology, mode and mechanism class, and I'd like to provide as much information as I can in those 15-week courses. So, and it's not that all of that is critically important for them to be able to recall during the semester, but I want them to have that information afterwards.
Speaker 1:That's good and I think some of the like active, like I still remember doing the weed collection for your class. I guess that was the principles of weed science, the first one. And I, you know I don't know if you know this, but I've never been just a great student. I was never just a great student. I would put things off way too long and I remember I think I took it I can't remember if I took your class in the spring or fall semester, I kind of think it was the fall semester because I very clearly remember getting towards the deadline for that weed collection and being like, oh crap, it's like October and things are going dormant, and then like scrambling around at our research for, like, trying to find pigweed and shepherd's purse and whatever else was out there. But I learned, I just I don't know I learned a lot from that. I think the like practical, hands-on approach to it was really, at least for me, very useful.
Speaker 2:Good. Well, that's good to know and I'd like to take credit for that idea. I think most of the ideas that I have, or at least those that I've tried to implement in class, I learned from some of my mentors. So that weed collection I still have my weed collection from when I was a student. A similar collection was asked in the earlier years when I taught. I have since learned. Now I get a lot more weeds sent to me from consultants and growers through smartphones.
Speaker 2:So we've now switched to where students in the classroom are putting together a digital weed collection.
Speaker 2:I'm looking now for multiple photos for a given plant, kind of one in the habitat that it's growing in, then maybe a few close-ups of a leaf and leaf structure and shape and hairiness and some of the fruit, and then they kind of assemble all that together. It also now gives me an opportunity to use some of those collections and some of my county programs. So there's some nice databases that folks can access through Texas Tech that show a lot of those collections. The hands-on stuff that you mentioned not just weed ID that we do in laboratory settings we do try to spend some time on calibration and whether it's through a single wand pump-up sprayer to a small backpack sprayer to a tractor with a bigger boom. We'll have students out there collecting some of the discharge from nozzles and trying to calibrate the gallon per acre solution and how much herbicide needs to go into a tank. So certainly spend time in the classroom talking about some theories of weed management, but also the practical part of the lab is still, I think, pretty important for these courses.
Speaker 1:Have you found and this is less, I guess, material, specific, but just as a teaching, as a profession have you found that the way you've had to approach the classroom over the years has changed? I know technology changes and we change along with it, but not to put you on the spot too much, but this is a current discussion. I think in our field that, oh, I can't teach the way I did 10 years ago. A lot has happened in the last 10 years, but I'm just curious to hear your thoughts.
Speaker 2:Well, I think one of the things an assistant professor or a new professor needs to figure out is the classroom is probably not full of themselves. So maybe some of the desire or the need or the drive to learn whatever direction they plan to go and how much information like in weed science they feel like they need to learn, it may not be quite the same as a student that knows that that's the profession that they're going to choose. I hope that made a little bit of sense.
Speaker 2:I feel like I think some of the very first classes that I taught and again back to the good old chalk and chalkboard I would love to go back to that kind of delivery myself to have just a lot more of a discussion, and maybe partly it's because now, after 30 years of a lot of experience, it's pretty easy just to talk about things that I've seen, experiences that I've had.
Speaker 2:I think some of the earlier students I felt like they were maybe a little bit more dedicated or they felt like they really truly needed to learn that information where I think a lot of students now, because of just information access, a lot of them primarily just want to know where do I need to go get it if I need it. So they're just trying to be a bit more organized with the idea of I don't need to learn some of these specifics right now, but I want to know where can I get those pieces of information if I ever did need them for my profession. So I think then the questions that we may ask in a quiz or questions on an exam are going to be a little bit different, because some of the details that they're learning within the semester may not be quite this at the same level as they used to be.
Speaker 1:That's really insightful because I remember, even when I was in grad, I didn't have an iPhone, I didn't have a smartphone when I was doing my master's and so, yes, I mean, we had computers and I could go look things up, but now every student has all of human knowledge in their pocket they do In Vikram.
Speaker 2:I too remember when smartphones first came out. I remember when computers first came out, but with the smartphones I didn't like them in the classroom and usually I would try to make an example of somebody who was spending time on their phones and really to let them know that was not acceptable. Now if I get after some of those same students, they may turn that phone around and say, look, I'm in the notes. Or you mentioned something about a website, I'm in that website. So they are bringing a lot of that technology into the classroom. It may be a little bit distracting where I think some of the eye contact really just may not be there because they may be focused on something different.
Speaker 2:Another thing that's changed I hope I can tell this on this podcast back in the day when we could throw chalk or throw an eraser, and I did that for a while and partly I like to have fun when I teach. I take my profession serious but not quite so serious and I think sometimes just showing students that we're just everybody's human as they are. And I've got other things that are important in my life as well, whether it's sports or plays or what have you, but I just remember having some fun and throwing stuff at students. But that stopped when a student met me in the hallway who was quite a bit bigger than me and said don't do that to me again and I stopped.
Speaker 2:So, things have changed over the years, but some things are still the same. There's still the opportunity to work with young people that have a passion and if the information that's being shared in the classroom can add to that passion that they have and the information that they desire to learn, there's still a lot of satisfaction that occurs at the end of the day with classroom teaching.
Speaker 1:That's awesome and I will say I've enjoyed being back in the classroom physically after 2020 and 2021. And how weird it was my first semester teaching my class. I was in the Allen Theater which, for those of you listening who aren't familiar, this is a thousand seat theater and I had a hundred students and it felt like talking to an empty room and it was real weird. And so it's nice having classrooms where I can actually see faces and engage with students a little bit.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and just coming out of COVID, not that many years ago, when we were doing all of our teaching in front of a computer or we were doing teaching when they limited the number of students that could be in the classroom. So don't want to forget those days. But yes, the opportunity now to go into a classroom and it may be very full Just in learning is, I mean, it's definitely a two-way street. So if somehow we can convey how much we need those students in the chairs because if we lead a discussion and they're not in the chairs, the discussion isn't going to be as effective then when they're there and they're actively participating and asking questions and providing information about their experiences, I just think it makes the overall learning environment better when there's multiple folks contributing to the topic that's being discussed.
Speaker 1:Absolutely, I absolutely agree and I will say that I think this semester I've had one of the most engaged classes I've had, just in terms of discussion and the back and forth. It's been fun.
Speaker 2:So again back to the COVID thing. I feel like, coming out of that, when the students were coming back to the classroom, I feel like some of those discussions were pretty one-sided. There wasn't a whole lot of discussion. I do feel like over time now we're starting to get back to where some of these discussions can be very lively. And I've seen you in the classroom and I know you do a very good job. Cool thanks, and no doubt it's a gift to get the students to feel comfortable and to be able to share their experiences and, again, I just think that makes the learning environment and setting so much better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's awesome. I totally agree. Just as we wrap up, I've got a couple of questions for you and they're kind of specific, sort of what is your least favorite weed, my least favorite? If there was like one weed pest that you were like if I never saw this plant again, I'd be completely happy.
Speaker 2:So typically the exact opposite is asked. Somebody's going to ask what my favorite is and I've got that answer Least favorite, I guess. Right now I'm just going to say field bindweed. So field bindweed and you mentioned some of your listeners might be in the southeast. This is a weed that is from north to southeast to west. It's completely across the United States. It may grow down 30 feet. It's extremely difficult to control and there's just so many challenges as that plant moves into a newer environment. So that's probably my least favorite, because when I get phone calls from folks asking how do I get rid of it, I just don't have very good answer it's a battle of attrition.
Speaker 2:And whatever that answer may be, it may be a 30-year plan where, if you stick to this for 30 years, you'll start to see some pretty good progress.
Speaker 1:Okay, then on the other side, what's your favorite?
Speaker 2:So good, I'm ready for that. Velvet leaf, without a doubt. Okay, velvet leaf was a Midwestern weed. I mentioned Dr Bob Anderson. He was collecting velvet leaf accessions from all over the world. It was originally used for textile purposes Very problematic weed in that part of the country. I think now we've got some pretty good technologies that are allowing us to control velvet leaf. Whenever I see a velvet leaf now I have to stop and take pictures and one of the beauties of sharing that information with past students I will sometimes randomly be sent a picture from a student that will say look at this plant that I just found and I thought of you, and it'll be velvet leaf from some place across the country.
Speaker 1:All right, that's a good answer. So last question I have as we finish up here and I ask every guest this and it's more fun to surprise them with it just because I want to get an honest, just off the cuff answer If there was a piece of advice you could leave our listeners with, I think it'd be about anything Favorite way to cook a steak or a weed, control or just learning, or whatever.
Speaker 2:What thing would you like our listeners to remember and I get this look a lot actually- I'm just what a terrible question to ask and put me on the spot, and I'm going to come up with a much better answer here in about ten minutes. I guess I'm going to go this direction. I would encourage folks to have a passion and to pursue that passion, and anything worth achieving is probably going to have some bumps and bruises and ups and downs along the way. Enjoy doing what you're doing and pretty much give 110% to that task.
Speaker 1:It's great advice. I think that's a great answer. Okay, I think that's great. So, dr Dutra, I appreciate your time and just sharing your experience and your knowledge and everything else. It's been a pleasure getting to know you over the years and getting to work with you in a different capacity. Now you want to be found. I was going to say I usually ask where can people find you? And then they plug their social media. But if you don't want to be found, that's fine.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't mind being found, but they're just going to have to find me the old fashioned way and they're going to have to look at the Plant and Soil Science Directory here at Texas Tech or Soil and Crop Science at Texas A&M. And we would love to have conversations with folks that are listening to this podcast and hopefully want to maybe just visit a bit further about some of the things that were said. Or maybe there's some folks that think maybe I address things a little bit inappropriately based on the way that they see it, and to me that's okay as well, and I would close by saying it's been a pleasure to see you and the progress that you've made. I didn't know you were a bad student at all. I think for me you were a very good student.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate that and I would say that you are one that has found that passion and you've pursued it and you're doing very well, and it should make waking up in the morning and going to bed in the evening a lot easier because of the difference that you're making with your career. So I thank you for this opportunity and I thank you for what you do.
Speaker 1:I appreciate that a lot and again, thanks for your time and for those of you listening. I hope you enjoyed that conversation. Reach out and we'll talk to you next time. Y'all thanks so much again for listening and a huge thanks to Dr Dottray for being on the show and sharing his wisdom and his years of experience in both controlling weeds in the landscape and the reasons to do that, but also in the classroom and how to connect with students and how to teach effectively, because it's one thing that he does very well.
Speaker 1:Thanks again to the Texas Tech Department of Plant and Soil Science for supporting the show, as well as the Davis College of Agricultural Sciences and Natural Resources. Thanks to the PodFix Network. But once more, thanks most of all to you. You've got some great content coming up. I'm glad you're still with me and I am glad you were enjoying plant. Apology, please send me some feedback. Keep being kind to one another. If you have not, to this day, been kind to the people around you, maybe give that a shot. It's pretty cool. Keep being wonderful, very cool plant people and I will talk to you next time.
