25. The Wild Life, Essential Questions, and War of the Worlds w/ Devon Bowker

Episode 25 is getting wild! Today's guest is Devon Bowker from The Wild Life podcast. He's a naturalist, science educator, podcaster, high school teacher, founder of a non-profit, and so much more! We talk about everything from how to survive quarantine with a 4-year-old to ways to improve access to nature and education for everyone. It's a great, encouraging, fun episode and I think you're really going to enjoy it!

Devon Bowker and The Wild Life
Twitter: @devthenatureguy
            @TheWildLifePod
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Website: https://thewildlife.blog/
Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/TheWildLife


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Transcript

Unknown Speaker : 0:00

What's up my plant deist plant people. It's Tuesday the 18th of August in the year of 2020. Yes, that's right, the one that is trying to destroy us all. And we're back with another episode of the plant apology podcast, the show where we dive into the lives careers and ambitions and passions of some really cool plant and nature people and let you know what keeps them coming back for more, y'all. We might as well slap four doors and a hatchback On today's episode because it's a crossover. You get it because doors and and they have a hatchback and I'm not sorry, I'm not I'm not sorry. Anyway, more on that soon. A little bit of housekeeping first. First thing I would like to once again, solicit your reviews if you could leave me a rating and review either on pod chaser, or Apple podcasts or castbox or anywhere else that you can leave reviews. I would appreciate it. I just want to make sure that we are still heading in the right direction with the show that everything is going like you want to hear and like you want it to be. And also it helps keep us up in the ratings and let more people discover the show. And also learn that they are really cool plant people and that they also can nerd out about this stuff. Second, join us in the plant apologies cool plant people Facebook group. It's like all the fun. It's so much fun. You need to be a part of it. There's questions there's answers. There's like so many names about plants, so many names. And I know you're gonna love every minute of it. There's some really cool plant people in the plant apologies cool plant people Facebook group. Next, our partners partner is his podcast partner. I'm batting 1000 this morning, you'll first pecan Ridge at pecan ridge.com. If you need pecans if you need barbecue sauce, if you like pie, or pillows with gridwork streets that are Present Lubbock America on them. All kinds of other fun gifts and locally made goodies. Hit up pecan Ridge comm whether you live in the Lubbock area or not, they have something that you will love. Use the promo code a plant people all lowercase all one word at checkout, and you'll get 10% off your order, and everyone will be happy and there will be cheering in the streets. Second, check out local lbk especially if you're in the limbic area or if you end up in the limbic area from time to time. Local lbk works with local businesses from movie theaters and clothing stores to restaurants and coffee shops to provide you the best deals. And for the price of $5 per month the cost of one cup of coffee at Green mermaid store, you can be a member of local lbk 10% of every order actually more than that, I think. I don't remember the percentage. More than 10% of every order goes back into local community building and goes back into business development. And you'll get a discount card that gives you cool discounts at all these places and you will really plug into and support our community. The link for that is in the show notes. Okay, now that all that's out of the way, did you have fun? I had fun. Next we're going to talk about today's episode, and I mentioned it was a crossover. And today's crossover is with Devin Booker from the wildlife podcast. And Devin and I spoke we've become friends over the past few months on Twitter. And y'all and if I haven't said this before, follow all these podcasts on Twitter podcast, Twitter is lit. You can argue about worms. You can find all kinds of cool facts. There's jokes galore. You'll love it plug into podcast, Twitter, but Devin and I have been friends a few months on social media and you know, we really kind of hit it off. I hit their show. The Wildlife is great. It is so relevant to so many things going on. It's Today, but more than anything, they just talk about how cool nature is, from plants to animals and everything in between. Devin show the wildlife is just amazing. And they do a really thoughtful and thorough job of covering all this thing. So I asked him if he would come be on the show and talk about some nonprofit work he's doing, talking about the show and his life as a high school science teacher in the year 2020. just just just just dwell on that for a sec.

Unknown Speaker : 4:36

Are you done? Have you dwelt enough? Okay, great. So, Devin came on. It's a really fun interview. We laugh a lot. We talk about everything from our four year old boys and we both have a four year old boy and what it's like to try to limit screen time to just the bigger questions of access to nature and access to education, and all of the the stuff wrapped up in that it's a wonderful episode. It's a ton of fun, and I know you're going to love it. So tie up your shoes, put on your longest tube socks, and enjoy another wonderful, super fun episode of the plan typology podcast with Devin Booker from the wild.

Unknown Speaker : 5:25

All right, well, we are up and running. And I'm here with a Devin Booker from the wild life podcast. How's it going today? Good, good. How are you doing? I'm good. I'm just I'm hanging in there, you know, dealing with life as it comes through this whole ordeal.

Unknown Speaker : 5:41

Yes,

Unknown Speaker : 5:42

as best as, as best as any of us can. I mean, that's, that's really what it's all about at this point. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 5:48

yeah. So just going with the flow.

Unknown Speaker : 5:50

Yeah. And it's like, it changes a couple of times a day or you know, and so you just, you just have to deal with it.

Unknown Speaker : 5:55

Yep. Yep. I've gotten to the point where, you know, largely, you know, I still They'll say really up to date and everything. But, you know, in terms of like my job and things, it's kind of like, you know what, just tell me what the plan is. And if it changes Tell me what that plan is. And I'll just approach it with a positive attitude and go with the flow because that's about all you can do at this point.

Unknown Speaker : 6:14

Oh, yeah, you just do your best whatever. We'll get into the actual content here in a minute but what have you and your family spent quarantine and lockdown times doing?

Unknown Speaker : 6:23

Oh my gosh, you know, it's kind of funny because in a way, I don't feel like a whole lot has changed. Because that's just kind of how we live I mean, we do a lot of hiking we do a lot of stuff outside and that's not really all that restricted so we're still doing a lot of hiking and still doing a lot of stuff outside. If anything, I think you know, we've we've just done a lot more family, you know, meaningful time kind of stuff. You know, we we go on a walk every night for a couple miles and, you know, getting getting more chances to do fun stuff like a buried treasure chest out in the yard for my son Go find that school that kind of stuff. Yeah, lots of as a parent I'm sure you can relate hopefully.

Unknown Speaker : 7:09

Far too much screentime Oh my goodness.

Unknown Speaker : 7:11

Oh my goodness.

Unknown Speaker : 7:13

Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 7:14

absolutely. So we had a friend that posted something on Facebook A while back and it was like so are you are how are you limiting screen time? And I'm like I'm not I just you know, we hope for the best and hope his brain is not too mushy when we give him the other side of all this.

Unknown Speaker : 7:30

Yeah, I kind of I don't want to say gave up a while ago but it just got to a point where it's like I'm not I can't even keep track anymore. It's alright. You know, we're okay.

Unknown Speaker : 7:39

We're we are dealing with this as it comes. Yeah, he we at least try to keep the stuff that he watches like he has a little kindle fire that he watches shows on and yeah, we try to make sure it's more like PBS and nature and like educational. But lately he has gotten into like sweets for and he doesn't play video games, but he found Like some video game playthroughs and so he just like watches Mario, like,

Unknown Speaker : 8:05

walk. So I'm laughing about this because this is the exact same situation I'm finding myself in a four year old. Because we were doing a lot of like ABC mouse and like, you know, stuff that was, you know more on the educational side, and we have a fire stick and you can like on YouTube and search and stuff. And he stumbled upon I don't even know how but he ended up pulling up. Yoshi craftworld. And it doesn't really play games, but and so he's just been obsessively watching like luigis Mansion. Yeah. And Mario. Yeah, like to the point where we actually ended up just buying a switch

Unknown Speaker : 8:39

way. That's

Unknown Speaker : 8:40

when I can just introduce him to that because it's like, driving us crazy. Just watching the walkthroughs oh my goodness, like you can't even read the dialog boxes.

Unknown Speaker : 8:48

And so you're getting from the hell and that's the funniest thing because we're like, oh, sir, you're watching your video about the game and he just thinks they're movies, right? he just thinks there. But he like talks in video game. Now. He He's like, we'll be doing something and he's like, Oh, we unlocked another level. We're like, what are you even talking about? Like, what does that mean?

Unknown Speaker : 9:08

Oh, that's funny. Okay, so I know I'm not alone in this.

Unknown Speaker : 9:12

Oh, no. Oh, no, no, absolutely not. We're, you know, I think his parents it's like, yeah, we try to be as educational and stuff and at some point, it's just like, Okay, you know what, have fun and give me five minutes to not be talked to. I just need five minutes. Yeah. No, but it's it's been It has been an adventure for sure.

Unknown Speaker : 9:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Unknown Speaker : 9:37

All right. So let's let's let's jump in into you and your life and and, you know, you you host this great podcast called the wildlife where y'all talk about, you know, everything from trees and plants to all kinds of animals and, you know, worms that make Twitter angry and all kinds of stuff. So What Tell me about your life first, like, What? What did you study? Where did you grow up? What? Well, what got you into nature in science?

Unknown Speaker : 10:07

Yeah, sure. Um, you know, it's kind of one of those things where where?

Unknown Speaker : 10:14

Yeah, I to use a more Southern term if it was a snake it would have been me, right. You know, it took me a really long time to realize that like, this was really the thing that I wanted to do. And when you look back, when I look back, it's just like, how did I not realize because, you know, as a kid, I remember. So I was born in Ohio, my family moved to Texas, there was a period where we move to Minnesota and then to Kentucky and then back down to Texas. We're kind of all over the place. But I remember like as a kid in Pasadena, you know, in my front yard, trying Well, I had a neighbor friend across the street, and he would come over and we would be pretending Steve Irwin, right or like the the kratt brothers, right and we just be eating plants in my yard. Just like, you know, to see like, Oh, you know what they taste like and if we could survive on. Fortunately, we never got crazy sick or anything, which is just astonishes me. But like, that was just how we had fun. And you know, I, my mom recently they they were moving and she sent me this giant bin because she saves everything on her water. But she's at least getting rid of it, I guess. And like, I found this thing from like, kindergarten where, what do you want to be when you grow up? I want to be a scientist explorer because they discover animals and stuff. But yet, at some point, you know, I wanted to be a pilot and then I actually got really into culinary one best team chef in Houston. Whoa. Yeah, I was I was in the competition for the Art Institute. And then I kind of was just like, you know, I don't actually want to do this and I dropped out. Wow, it was a whole there's a whole thing. And then started college and for history, education, and then realize, you know what, actually I really love the science part. So I went into science education, then, you know, like the like the usual college student in their early phases, I ended up switching to biotech, then biomed. And then finally, the really long major that I ended up sticking with was ecology field or ecology, field biology with an emphasis in wildlife biology. Okay, um, and you know, yeah, growing up, you know, my family was very outdoors we did a lot of camping. You know, I some of my earliest memories are me, three, four years old, you know, up in front of my family doing the hiking and picking up frogs and that kind of stuff and you're always just really curious you know, doing things like putting a grasshopper in a jar with some ants to see what would happen right, just kind of sadistic but and, um, as far as So, so yeah, I went through. I went through a Wildlife Biology Program and during that

Unknown Speaker : 12:57

I

Unknown Speaker : 12:59

did a lot of different stuff. I worked for the US Army Corps of Engineers as a park ranger. I worked. I took a semester where I actually went back down to Texas, and worked at Armand Bayou Nature Center as an outdoor educator. And that experience was really what kind of set things on a new course for me, although I didn't realize it at the time, because I was down there to intern at the Wildlife Center of Texas. And I was working like two or three other jobs at the time. And I was looking for something more field related. And so I went to Armand by you, and I literally was like, What do you have? Do you have anything, you know, work in, you know, with seed gathering, you know, what can I do? And they're like, you know, we don't really have anything open there. But we do have something an outdoor education, would you be interested in that? And I was like, I mean, I guess then I fell in love with it. Yeah. And then, you know, college went on, you know, we my wife and I had a had a little boy, graduated. Got a job with a minute. So DNR is an interpretive naturalist and was just absolutely immersed in the whole thing. But I was still looking for things that, you know, I felt like was the expectation, you know, something more in the field, something that wasn't like an educational position, but something doing research or conservation. Sure. And I ended up doing wolf conservation work for like, two and a half years. Which was incredibly interesting. It was for a nonprofit. And, and there was a lot in relate, you know, working with different federal and state governmental things and doing stuff with law and trying to get, you know, localized programs set up and it was a lot of things. Yeah, taught me a lot. It's very interesting. And it's something that I would I would never change for anything. But But in terms of You know, at some, some point towards the tail end there, I started going back to school to be a science teacher. realize, you know, really that education piece is the part that I was most passionate about even even in the wolf stuff. It was the times that I got to teach the times that I got to go out and hold a educational meeting or something. That was times where I really felt, you know, like, I had a fire inside. Yeah, and the wildlife was kind of something in the background of all of this. So 2017 it was right after I graduated from college, I didn't have a job yet. I was waiting for my summer position to start. And I was home with my son, who was very little until he talked or anything,

Unknown Speaker : 15:43

right? Um,

Unknown Speaker : 15:44

yeah. And I was looking kind of for something to do. And I was like, you know, I want to start a blog. So I started the wildlife dot blog. started answering people's questions and just posting some interesting stuff. Then I got the idea of like, well, what if I did like a video Yo series. And I called up Dr. Tim Caro, at UC Davis, because I saw an article about his research on why zebras have stripes, and ended up doing a, an interview with him. And I was trying to put it together, but the video file got corrupted. And so there was no video that was going to happen, right? And I was like, Okay, well, what am I going to do? So I put it together an audio and I just uploaded that and was like, well, maybe this will work and started getting some feedback from friends and stuff that was like, you know that that's actually pretty cool. We're going to do anything with that. And it took a few months and eventually convinced it convincing my brother to join in and it's just kind of exploded from there. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 16:48

yeah. And and you know, I really enjoy your show. I like the I like the tone of it. I feel like it's very, you know, it's it. You do a great job of kind of treading this line of it being conversational, but also Like, really, like, there's really a lot of content, like a lot of science and a lot of like stuff that you cover. And I've said for a long time that you have to like, and I know how to sound but you almost have to trick people into learning, right? You like you have to get them laughing and you have to get them having fun first, and then you can slip in education. Right and just kind of Yeah, to hide it in there.

Unknown Speaker : 17:23

Yeah. See, and that's, that's definitely something I learned, starting with outdoor education. And I was able to bring into because I was like the college club president and stuff in college, we did educational programs and things. But as a naturalist, you know, one of the things that's drilled into you constantly while you're trying to plan for your programs and things is your audience is not captive. It's not like a classroom where they have to be sitting there. They can walk away whenever they want, right? And so everything you do has to be about, you know, probing in finding connections and finding ways to keep people there. Keep people listening, keep people engaged related to their life. And, you know, that's kind of the approach I've just taken to teaching this person I try to take to a podcast, although it's difficult because with a podcast, you don't necessarily you can't probe, right, that person out there, you just have to try to do your best.

Unknown Speaker : 18:18

But I think you know, over time you do kind of start to learn your audience and you start to learn what, what works with people and what doesn't, and you can kind of drive the show that way. And I think y'all have done a great job with that. So I guess the question I was gonna ask, and we'll kind of come back to the show a little bit here in a minute, but I want to talk about your life as a high school teacher, high school science teacher. Yeah. And so so two questions there. The first I guess is like, how has your and you kind of mentioned this just now actually, how has your life is a kind of informal educator, which, you know, I have a similar background to you. They're coming from extension, our community educator, how has that like in formed and molded the way you teach in the classroom.

Unknown Speaker : 19:03

Yeah, um,

Unknown Speaker : 19:06

it kind of kind of like I was saying in terms of, of realizing I mean, so when you're dealing with high school students, I mean, you're dealing with a very odd demographic. I love them to pieces, but they're weird. And but part of what I mean by them being weird is they're in such an in between, because like, they to themselves are grown enough that they have a perspective. And they have a world lens and they have dreams beyond school, right? And they have things that they find they're far more important than school. And, you know, they're starting to get to the point where they're like, okay, high school is a waste of time. I'm done with this, you know, why can I just move on and kind of check it out? But they're also kids? Yeah. They're not adults yet. And so a lot of the things about being a kid still apply. And so it's just about thinking Going out, you know, the same same that you would do with a naturalist program, except the great thing is, is you get to keep doing it. It's not just for 20 minutes, it's every single day, building relationships, figuring out what makes people tick, what motivates them, what they care about outside of school. And that's, that's really the biggest thing is everything that I teach, I'm trying to take something that's in the news, I'm kind of current event or some kind of external connection, and, and bring it into what we're talking about. Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes it's about just bringing in a larger concept. You know, like, I love using the World Wide Web to introduce ecosystems and the interconnectivity of life and stuff or, you know, introducing evolution. The way that I've always done that is I borrow a Archaeopteryx fossil from the museum, replica, not sure, sure. And simulating a dig. And so then it's this whole process of like, covering this thing, and they don't know what it is, and I haven't tried to characterize it as either a bird or reptile. And they can't. It's too in between, right, which brings in this idea of transitional species and it kicks off the whole unit. You know, blood type and cell stuff. I do a crime scene lab. It's all that's awesome. applicable to the real world in some capacity.

Unknown Speaker : 21:22

Yeah. Yeah. So do you teach biology I guess?

Unknown Speaker : 21:26

Yeah. So I teach. I actually teach biology, physics, physical science and geometry. Wow. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 21:36

Wow.

Unknown Speaker : 21:38

Yeah, that's a lot, man.

Unknown Speaker : 21:39

Yeah. And so physics is, you know, same kind of approach. I it was funny as last year is my first year teaching physics and I started in the very traditional sense. And I realized really quick like, that was not going to work. And so one day when they came into class, I was like, We're going outside. We're going to move my car and they're like, what So I tied a rope around a tree, tied it to my back into my car. And I was like, Alright, move it. And they experimented pulling the rope in different ways and realize it wasn't budging. And they did a lateral push, kind of like you would on a bow. And my car moved. And they're like, wow, this is working. And, and so very quickly started incorporating a lot of that kind of stuff. I mean, we, we did a whole final project on forces in motion and all that stuff by their project was being a team for NASA, and designing a way to intercept or divert an asteroid from colliding with the earth. And so we looked into the dinosaur extinction. And you know, how you would divert something in space and like, all kinds of just really outlandish stuff. And they ended up designing three solutions to if an asteroid was incoming, how we could prevent, you know, an apocalypse. That's super cool.

Unknown Speaker : 22:56

That's awesome. Super cool. And I like that.

Unknown Speaker : 23:00

You know, I think education is such an interesting thing where our students today, you know, and I teach I teach college students, but I teach a lot of freshmen. And so ultimately, they're not that different than your high school students. Right? They're, they're coming in, they're 18, but they're still kids, which is fine. I think that's good. I think that's, that's where we need to be teaching. But like, they can, you know, on their cell phones, really access all human knowledge, right, like we have at our fingertips, the collection of millions of years of evolution and thousands of years of science and, and literature and everything. But what they can't learn from their cell phones is how to apply that to their lives. Yeah, and I think as educators, that's where we stand in the gap today as a modern educator. And so I love the thought of you taking these concepts and taking them outside and showing them nature and showing them like oh, This is what affects this plant growing or this is what affects the way that this animal feeds or let's push my car, you know, whatever. Like, I think that that is such a cool way to help them make those long term connections between information and application.

Unknown Speaker : 24:15

Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 24:18

You know, I have to say, too, I mean,

Unknown Speaker : 24:21

there is so kind of relating to our current time, and COVID and stuff. Yeah, um, before schools ended up closing out. You know, back in March, I'm kind of in the same boat, I'm losing track of time. It's just all runs together. Everything's crazy. But, you know, thinking back to two then, you know, it was when things really heating up, and we didn't really know what was going to happen things were changing, you know, by the second Yeah, things are doing that now. But at that time, it was like, you didn't know what was gonna happen in the next 10 minutes. Yeah. And you were just kind of watching is like cases creep. Closer and closer and closer and things like that. And I made the decision. You know, I talked to my principal and stuff and I made a decision. I said, this is a really big deal. And I know that it's that it's all that's on their minds. Right now. We're doing something on ecology and biology, and we're doing something with electricity and physics. I don't feel like it's right. Can I put a pause on this for a week and figure out how to approach COVID and, and getting them prepared for how to handle this in the real world, especially if we end up outside of school because they won't have us as constant support. And I remembered, so my wife is an English teacher. And earlier in the year she had a short story unit and she had done War of the Worlds. Okay, we had had this conversation about

Unknown Speaker : 25:56

you know, how

Unknown Speaker : 25:58

how applicable it is to lot of things in her context, she had us it kind of as like a media and government who you could trust kind of thing. Mm hmm. And in my context, I was like, you know, there's a few things with this because the premise of the story is a virus, it's an invader, or there's an invader. And then there's a virus that ends up wiping out the invader. There's this where you can't trust the media and the information is changing, and people are dying and all these weird components and Plus, there's this real world components where, you know, there's the story about back in the day causing panic in the streets on a played on the radio. There's a story of when it played on a South American radio station, and it actually caused deaths of people in a rating of a town and the military, like, really complicated stuff. And so I brought that in and actually started teaching a collaborative lesson on War of the Worlds and truth and panic and how to balance between panic and calmness and accepting reality and stuff and started Bring in lessons about like, here's a virus. This is how it spreads. This is what it does. Here's what the current numbers are saying. And, you know, by the end of it, I mean, just a week. I mean, they were more educated than 90% of people that I was seeing on social media. And just ready to go, you know, ready to handle it ready to, you know, figure out, figure out the numbers figure out what was going on, going home and communicating and get to fam, you know, families and stuff. It was just, it was amazing.

Unknown Speaker : 27:30

Yeah. Man, that's and that's such a big task of especially right now, of making sure that your students are well equipped to handle life because I think ultimately, that's what we do as educators is try to give our kids and our students the, the tools they need to make it through life and whether that is through, you know, knowledge about how, you know, ballistic motion works in your physics classes to how to how to parse out All this information we hear on the internet about COVID. And, you know, yeah, differentiate between information and misinformation. That's a, that is a big and important task.

Unknown Speaker : 28:10

Yeah. In a way, it's a lot of pressure. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 28:14

You know, especially as high school because it is very much, you know, even society there can level high schoolers can take care of themselves, but they are still kids. And like, they're dealing, they're just really good at masking and acting big and tough and acting like they're an adult, but their kids and when you really think about that the people you have in front of you or somebody's kid, and and while they might look big and tough inside, they're not so much. You know, you really understand the impact and the seriousness of like, making sure that they're ready.

Unknown Speaker : 28:50

Yeah, like ready to actually go out there and handle stuff.

Unknown Speaker : 28:53

Yeah, for sure. Oh, for sure. For sure. And it Yeah, it is a lot of pressure, but I think it's important work that needs to be be done. And it takes a special kind of person to do it for sure. Um, so I guess let's let's kind of transition back into the wildlife and the show itself. And then also some of the things that have spun off from that. I know you have just started this nonprofit that you've got a variety of other kind of efforts going through it. So, you know, how many episodes in are you into your show? Um, 50 something?

Unknown Speaker : 29:30

Yeah. 60 something it's kind of hard to say because we're, we've sometimes rereleased different things, but we've added some things to rerelease it So technically, probably around like 65 or so. Okay.

Unknown Speaker : 29:42

Yeah. Gosh, that's, that's a lot. I think because I do my show. I haven't really been very good at sticking to a schedule. This comes out generally, like every other week, but then I keep like throwing in extra stuff. And during lockdown. I released it every week just to have some extra content out there. Yeah, um, but okay. So I've got a question and and this is an aside a little bit. How did this Ryan Reynolds thing start? Because you always talk about like, we're this many episodes in without having Ryan Reynolds come on to, you know, discuss Wolverine it's

Unknown Speaker : 30:11

Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 30:12

yeah, um, that started with my students. Okay. There was one morning it was before school and some of my students were in my classroom early and, you know, catching up about the weekend and stuff. And they were asking about the show because a lot of them listen to it. And one of them said something like, you know, you really got to get like a big celebrity on there. I'm like, well, we, you know, we focus on scientists really inspiring to celebrity scientists, but they're like, No, you need, you need a celebrity because I don't really draw attention. I was like, well, who? And they're like, Ryan Reynolds. Why Ryan Reynolds because he plays Deadpool. And I'm like, but how I have to figure out a way to connect that. And they're like, well, I don't know. I mean, what other movies is he been in? And we just started going in his weird circle and it was Like, while he always jokes about Hugh Jackman, Hugh Jackman played Wolverine, Wolverines are real animals. And my students were like, please, for us, every week, will you start asking this? And I was like, You know what? I mean? If I don't, you're gonna bug me about it. So, sure, yeah, why not? And it's kind of funny. So let's just, let's just go for it and see if it ever happens.

Unknown Speaker : 31:26

Dude, I love that so much that like, the first time I heard it when I first because I think I jumped into your show. I don't remember how far you were. You were pretty foreign. Actually, no. And I do remember, it was the episode that you had with Ellen from just the zoo of us because I listened to her show. And I'd seen that she posted it and that's kind of how I got connected with with y'all doing and I went back and started listening to some of the back catalogue. And I was like, how will How did this I mean, and but I love it. I and now it's like, somewhere in the back of my head. I'm like, how do I help them Get Ryan Reynolds on the show. And I'll tag him on Twitter as much as I can. But yeah, that would be the coolest thing ever, by the way.

Unknown Speaker : 32:08

Yeah. I've had some people say, Well, why not Hugh Jackman then, you know, and I'm like, well, because he's not Ryan Reynolds and that's not what my students asked for. Right so sorry, Hugh, if you're interested, you know, great and all but like, we're looking for Ryan.

Unknown Speaker : 32:22

Although, you know what that but he may be like a gateway celebrity right? Not that not a huge Hugh Jackman is one of the biggest celebrities in the world. But they compete constantly. So if you can get Hugh Jackman on the show and have him talk crap about Ryan Reynolds, I bet you could get Ryan Reynolds on their rebuttal. So this this, this plan is coming together. We'll get there. That's hilarious, dude. Um, okay. So, as as you're trying to figure out how to ask this question, right. Okay, as you're kind of building your show, what process do you use to pick topics and figure out what you're going to talk about? Oh gosh. So really early on, and I if there's if there's anything in the world that gives me just the the most cringing reaction it's going back and listening to our older man because oh my god and I feel like we've come a really long way I feel like we still have a long way that we could go

Unknown Speaker : 33:23

but back in the day it was like literally I'd be on the phone and this is kind of how it started in the idea of you know, having my brother on and I I'm gonna say Ricky go he said goes by Richard professionally but i i've always called them Ricky's your brother Riley. Every single time I say Richard on the show, I have to like think about it all the time. Um, we always have these really long phone conversations where like, I'm telling about something I learned in college or whatever. And he's asking all these questions and, and that was when I was like, You know what, why don't you just do this with me, we could just do this and record it. And that's that's how we can do it. And that's what we are. Started with doing as I was like, hey, Richard, have you ever heard of the Christmas Island crabs? And he's like, No, I haven't. And we just started talking about them. And then it got to a point where like, so we would literally, we finished one, and then I'd be like, Alright, what do you want to talk about next time? And then that's how we did it very disorganized. We didn't have a release schedule, right? It was just kind of whenever we felt like it. Then when we were like, you know, let's start getting more regular with this. We have a Google spreadsheet that has based on a weekly schedule, three years worth of topics and concepts and questions, wow, that we want to do episodes on. And one of the things we always joke about is like, there's 8.7 million species identified. If you were to, you know, one week, he's, I mean, it would take like 67,000 years to really actually do that. So when we're never going to run out of topics. So it's kind of like we have this really long list and we look maybe at the calendar on if there's some Kind of looping. But really, we just wait for the right person. Sure. So, you know, looking through social media, a news article hits, we read a book and find somebody interesting. Social media is super, super helpful, especially Twitter. Now, we've been getting more into that.

Unknown Speaker : 35:17

But really, it's kind of like, sometimes it's a question.

Unknown Speaker : 35:21

Sometimes it's a question my students had, and sometimes it's something that my son said, and I was like, Huh, that's kind of interesting. Yeah. Um, but it always, you know, it's just kind of what we feel like, you know, is just opportune at the moment, I guess. And the way that it usually ends up working is that we find a person and then we go creeper mode and just comb through their stuff.

Unknown Speaker : 35:45

Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 35:46

you know, Publication history, their website, their Wikipedia, anytime they've been in an article and just find out everything we can about what they've worked on. You know, their perspective, how they interview and that kind of thing. So send off an email and say, Hey, be on the show. Yeah. And hopefully they reply, and usually Yes. And actually, we haven't had anybody say, No, that's been great. And three years of doing this, and you know, we then once you know, once we've had to go ahead and we set a date, we try to hone in on. So as a teacher, I'm really big on a lesson is guided by an essential question. Okay. So what's the question that you're hoping that they can answer by the end of the lesson? And usually, in terms of high school, you're saying like, okay, there's three main concepts that you can cover before you lose them. So three main concepts in approaching that essential question. So what we do with every episode as we go, here's our essential question whether or not we say it on the show. And here are the three main things that we really want to truly deeply cover, right. And we have a Google slide template, where we start putting in pictures, videos, interesting links and that kind of thing.

Unknown Speaker : 37:05

Develop a list of questions

Unknown Speaker : 37:07

in a general outline and send that out to the person we're going to talk to. We talked to them, then we literally sit next to each other, where I'm sitting right now. And we listen to the interview. And we type notes into that Google slide and go through the whole thing. And, you know, maybe record some commentary as we're sitting there thinking about it and having ideas and questions. Sure. And then we go back in and kind of storyboard it. So we move the slides around. Which is why Google Slides is just great for it. Oh, yeah. Cuz I don't have to have index cards. Right? Yeah. So I just, you know, just slide everything around and go Okay, this is more of a narrative This seems to flow better and feel more natural. Let's go for like this. And, you know, record it, and I do the editing, and hopefully it works out. But one of the things that we're still kind of struggling with is so like, Figuring out and I think we, I think we figured it out because we're dealing with this right now with two episodes where we're producing

Unknown Speaker : 38:07

when he's not there for an interview,

Unknown Speaker : 38:11

and then we're doing the commentary later Oh, yeah. of if he's also doing the explaining, or to approach it more of like he is the what's the word I'm looking for? Not avatar, but like the, like the stand in the representative of the audience. Gotcha. And so the approach is, I am so I've had a conversation with a scientist about a concept or an animal or something. And so now I am trying to relay that information to him. Gotcha. And he's asking questions that the audience might have, and then I'm responding to those. So we're trying to think from the audience's perspective and doing that. And then if we're both on the interview, then it's more conversational Sure. Or if it's one where it's just a more conversational interview to begin with, and it doesn't really require a lot of explanation, then I'll just do the audio. And he he sometimes chimes in sometimes I wasn't sure. We're still trying to figure out that dynamic and how we want that to, to work. But

Unknown Speaker : 39:10

when that's Oh, yeah, absolutely. It's a process and it what I think is cool is that, you know, you can go back and I, I'm the same way like I, I'm really proud of, I mean, like, I love all of my episodes, but like going back and listening to some of them. I was like, I had no idea what I was doing. I didn't know how to ask a question, or do this kind of conversation, even with like, I've had quite a bit of media experience. But it's such a different animal getting into this. And so just like tracking the evolution of a show is really kind of fun. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 39:40

yeah, it's, um, it's one of those things too, and I'm sure that you feel this. of so when you do the interview, and then you go back and you listen to the interview. And so you're listening to the whole thing. You're listening to yourself, you're listening to them, you're listening to yourself, ask his questions, and sometimes you're listening multiple times. And so by the time that you're like, really getting to like editing putting things together. I mean, you might have heard it and heard yourself. like four or five. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And it gets to a point where just I just don't want to hear this. But you're also you pick up on every little tiny error yes or issue or thing and then so you're like is are people going to notice this? Well, they're only listening to at one time. Let's keep perspective. This is your eighth time listening. But still and then yeah, I get all on this like perfectionist wormhole.

Unknown Speaker : 40:28

Oh, it's when it comes to stuff. It's tough and like for my show, it's you know, very conversational, just like we're talking now. And so I don't do a whole lot of heavy heavy editing but every now and then, like, I'll I still listen to it three or four times before it goes out. And I'll hear something I said, I'm like, I'm an idiot. Like, how Why would I say that like, and and so it does kind of it does kind of, it gets in your head after a while, but I think it's it's a lot of fun, though. Or I've had a lot of fun doing it anyway, and I get you know, I've gotten to talk to you and some other really great cool people and Just keeps it interesting. And it's just been one of the more fun things I've had in my life, you know, over the past few years.

Unknown Speaker : 41:05

Yeah. Yeah. You know, I'd say that's kind of,

Unknown Speaker : 41:10

as you know, a selfish component, I guess. That's something that I've really taken away from this whole experience. It's just been life changing, and a lot of ways is because I'm really kind of addicted to learning. Yeah, like, if I was a vampire, I, like I was immortal. Maybe not even just a vampire. I think I would still be in college, and I want to be getting another degree. It's just my favorite thing to do. And doing this, I get to talk to amazing people learn constantly, always stay up to date. And it helps me you know, as a high school teacher, too, because then I can go back and, you know, maybe I was thinking of approaching, you know, a certain concept, like, you know, invasive species with one thing, and now I'm like, holy cow, I could do a whole thing about jellyfish. Yeah, yeah, take that approach. My wife on the other hand, you know, probably doesn't appreciate When I you know, when I finish up an interview, like, I'm talking to her, and I go off for 20 minutes about dung beetles. But

Unknown Speaker : 42:07

anyway, same thing. Yeah, I do the same thing. Yeah. Um, so as we kind of start to work towards the end of this a little bit, tell me about some of the nonprofit work you've started doing. Because the wildlife has turned into so much more than just a blog and a podcast, you're reaching out into the community doing all this stuff. So tell me about this thing that you've started.

Unknown Speaker : 42:30

Yeah, yeah. It's it's kind of, um,

Unknown Speaker : 42:34

it came from a few different things. And so like, some of my work in college as an outdoor educator, and I also did some stuff where, you know, the term was at risk youth, which is a term I have feelings about short. Yeah, um, you know, did some work with with, you know, that population and, you know, and then as an outdoor educator, you know, there's very obvious discrepancies on who was there. Who can afford it? And who has access? And then you know, working in science, there's very obvious discrepancies on who's there and who has access and who's excluded. And, you know, being a college student, you know, I remember even myself where, you know, I would get a opportunity for an internship that could have absolutely changed my career. But the only thing offered was like, you get like, 20 bucks a week for food. And that's about it. Yeah, I can put this on your resume, but you also have to pay for the credits for it to count towards graduation. And so it's like, well, hold up, I have to survive.

Unknown Speaker : 43:38

So eat?

Unknown Speaker : 43:38

Yeah. So what am I supposed to do? Like, you know, that doesn't that's not gonna work. And so, you know, I throw a lot of personal experiences and just witnessing a lot of different things that became really abundant to me that there was a really big gap and accessibility to see nature into science. And when we start the wildlife, you know, one of the reasons why You know, you, not everybody can make it to State Park. Not everybody can make it somewhere for an interpretive program, not everybody can make it to museum. Not everybody has BBC to watch naked nature documentaries, right? So doing something that's free for people to listen to, that's easy to understand, that brings the science to them, helps them see that it's real people behind it, and you can do it too. Mm hmm. That that was really the goal. And we were at the time calling it the nature accessibility gap, kind of like the you know, achievement gap. But as we've done it, we've realized that there's a lot more going on there, especially in terms of just straight up racism. Sure. You know, and just like, I mean, there's no really other way to put it and no, no way around it. And so, there's there's a lot of different things that kind of motivated the decision. But I'll say I mean, my brother and I have talked about probably 10 years even before the wildlife about eventually Starting some kind of outdoor educational, nonprofit venture to get people into the outdoors. And we just decided with some of the things that recent events, you know, take take the thing with Kristin Cooper and Amy Cooper, you know, in Central Park in New York, the whole birding incident and stuff that really just kind of motivate us to you know, say, you know what I mean? Why not just do it like why not just you know, we've got a we've got a platform we've got a podcast, we have a website, we do community events already we lead hikes, educational programs, let's just take it to the next step. And so you know, really our goal I mean, we so we started a few different things. So, one one fund that we are working on building up is a binoculars for young birders program. How cool because they're not good or expensive. field guides are expensive. And and that kind of stuff just you know if you're having to interest but you don't have access Anything that can really keep you out. So we're working on raising it so that people can apply. And we can not only purchase them for community programs, purchasing for schools, but individuals can apply. And we can get them like, you know, a brand new set of binoculars and a field guide to kind of get them on their journey. We're also working on a grant program for and we're, we're going back and forth on the name here. But for, you know, if you are a college student who's having to take an unpaid internship, we can help you. If you need to attend a conference, need to present at a conference, but you have to pay to get even get into it. We can help you if there is a training, I mean, I remember being in wildlife management class and getting a sheet, three pages long about here's all the different trainings that would be really good for you to get on your resume. And when he totaled it up. It's like thousands of dollars.

Unknown Speaker : 46:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, good, Lord.

Unknown Speaker : 46:54

So, you know, our goal is, you know, if we can in any way interrupt The system that excludes people we want to help. And we we acknowledge that. Sure, it would be easier if institutions, you know, let's say, paid for an internship. Yeah. But that's a complicated route, because then you look at the funding trails and things and it's not the institution's fault, necessarily. It's more, you know, a larger societal issue. Yeah, absolute values and things. So, acknowledging like that there are other social changes that need to take place. So we just want to do what we can in the rolling capacity that we have to to interrupt those systems of exclusion, wherever and however we can, whether it's free educational programs, funding that gets people outdoors, get some equipment to enjoy the outdoors to study the outdoors, to help them further their education. We just want to be a part of that.

Unknown Speaker : 47:50

And that's awesome. And that's such a great goal. And and again, like we we talked about a little bit that like, gosh, nature is nature is everywhere, right? And, but it's hard sometimes to learn to appreciate it if you don't have the opportunity to do so. So I like that you're, I really love that y'all are working on kind of pulling down some of those barriers. And and, you know, I think we mentioned earlier that we kind of stand in the gap for our students as educators. And that comes in a lot of forms. It's It's from the education itself, but it's also I think, sometimes we have to bridge that gap in society where it where it exists.

Unknown Speaker : 48:28

Yeah, yeah. I mean, we're even doing things we used to we did hikes at parks that were farther out and we realized, you know, what, if you can't get there, what does it really do it? Yeah. So I mean, we're literally doing things like we're doing downtown birding. So it's just you walk through downtown, and we're, you know, binoculars and we're just gonna see what we can find. Yeah, the plants, you know, things popping up through the sidewalk and he's an eye net, and you know, doing things that are all around us, learning to appreciate it. And you know, I will say so, like, we put out our first episode. Have a miniseries this last week. And that's like the first of many. So that was, um, that's something that's geared more towards high school and college age, but really anybody but the the goal is is kind of like bypassing the textbook, in some ways of and how complicated that stuff can can be and come across. So we're putting up educators and resources, worksheets, all that stuff for free. Yeah, with each of these episodes. Like we're we're only starting with file, like we have a miniseries on the books plan that we're working on already, for Mammalogy ornithology. If theology, we have a general plant biology miniseries, yeah, we have a bunch of that kind of stuff in the works, that eventually there's going to be a whole catalog of resources that you know, if you can't afford, you know, the visual Atlas. If you can't afford the, you know, the work textbook or something, you have a free set of resources that you can use

Unknown Speaker : 50:00

That's super cool. That is super cool. I love that. I love that, that it's just such a great mission. And I think it's true and this is this is cliche, but it's true what they say that knowledge is power. And the the way to grant or exclude power is to manage knowledge. And unfortunately, there's a lot of knowledge exclusion has happened in our history, and I love that y'all are trying to go the other way with it and give put put power back in the hands of learners, regardless of their circumstances. Yeah,

Unknown Speaker : 50:33

yeah. I mean, there's things like, you know, as a teacher, even, you know, there's websites where teachers share resources, but a lot of them are like, Alright, pay me five bucks for this worksheet that you can download. Yeah. And I'm like, I understand. But oh my gosh, I mean, at the same time, like, you know, a teacher who's looking for this kind of thing. Clearly, like they're, they're needing some help to connect with the students and to find something that works. And by making it something where they have to pay and stuff here You're keeping that opportunity not away from the teacher, you're keeping that opportunity away from the kids. Yeah. And and so that's really what it's about, you know, for us. No, it's not, you know, we, we don't really care about, you know, being popular or known as individuals or anything like that. And that's just not something we care about. That would be really uncomfortable with. Yeah, right. Um, you know, we, you know, if we can just do something out there, you know, not for the further men of the wildlife, but for the further men of people. That's, that's, that's what we're really about, man. That's awesome.

Unknown Speaker : 51:37

That's awesome. I love that. Um, so, you know, you've listened to the show, you know, one of the last things I do on these episodes is asked my guests for a piece of advice. And that can be field related that can be life related. I don't care. So if there was one thing that you wanted our listeners to take home with them today, what do you think that would be? Um,

Unknown Speaker : 52:01

I'm gonna say something that's somewhat general.

Unknown Speaker : 52:04

But I feel like because it applies to a lot of different things. Sure. And it's somewhat something that I've been learning on a more of a personal journey. I think that the way that we look at success, and the way that we look at happiness in this country in particular, is something to be achieved. It's like, once I get this degree, you know, I'm gonna be successful, I'm gonna be happy, I'm gonna have everything that I need. People will listen to me respect me, respect my opinion, my opinion and things will somehow matter if I earned this title. You know, I'll be happy when I finished this project. When I finished my dissertation, I'll finally be happy in that kind of thing. And, and what I think a lot of people miss is that, that happiness and that success is not an endpoint. Because whenever you reach it, you only end up kicking the ball a little further down the field, right and you say Well, now, when I do this next thing, you know, I'll be more successful and more happy, and I'll have more money and that kind of thing. It's about taking a step back. And you know, this is just a lesson to be learned, whether you're spending time in nature with your family, or in your career. Slow down and realize that happiness and success is not a destination. It's a journey. Yeah. And it's a process. And it's something in the now that that you get to experience and if you look at it as something to be earned, you'll you'll never feel it. You have to look at it as something that you already have. And you just have to look at the small stuff, pay attention to what's around you. That's really, really be present focus on one of my favorite things to do in nature is pick like a three by three patch of grass, especially in a prairie and just look and see what you know what all I can find and what else is going on to this thing that I would have normally just walked right past because I'm trying to get to the end of the trail. Mm hmm. Instead, I'm stopping and I'm just paying attention to what's right there in front of going on in that moment, and the stuff that you find is just amazing, you know, little camouflage critters you never would have seen. And I think it's a good metaphor for just life.

Unknown Speaker : 54:11

Yeah, man, that's, that's such. And I'm thinking through that as as you talk about it, and, gosh, that's so applicable in everything from like you said, family life to academia and everything in between that we, you know, miss the forest for the trees, or vice versa, you know, where we can just we kind of miss out on a lot of the, the joy of life by always chasing that next thing.

Unknown Speaker : 54:35

Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with planning and having gold. I mean, that's all great stuff. But I think what people miss is the process of the process that leads to that, and it's not doing the next best thing, the next best right thing, the next thing that makes you happy, the next thing that you think will work in that moment, and sometimes like that's just, that's just the right thing to do. Yeah, just take it slow.

Unknown Speaker : 54:56

Yeah, I love that. That's, that's, that's excellent advice. Um, So man, I really appreciate your time. And you talking with me today that I really enjoyed this conversation. And again, everyone out there, you should be listening to the wildlife and supporting the wildlife and just being a part of their mission. So where do we find you plug all your stuff?

Unknown Speaker : 55:17

Yeah, so our website is the wildlife dot blog, which is about to see a lot of different updates, especially related to the nonprofit stuff. We have a Patreon patreon.com slash the wildlife, we have PayPal, too. It's paypal.me slash the wildlife for one time donations to help, you know, build up some of these programs that we're trying to get off the ground. As far as the podcast goes, as far as my understanding is, is that we are wherever podcasts can be found wherever you get your podcast. And if you are listening, and you're looking at your platform and you don't see us, you know, let me know.

Unknown Speaker : 55:55

Yeah, that's important. Very good. That's important. Yeah.

Unknown Speaker : 55:59

Cool. Well, again, thanks so much for talking with me. And I'm looking forward to everyone hearing this sometime pretty soon. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you so much. And to everyone out there. Thanks for listening. As always keep being cool. And we will talk to you next time. Y'all my encouragement for you today is to live your life in such a way that you create access for people and not limited that the way that you carry yourselves and the way that you do everything in your day to day makes people's lives better, and makes people's ability to access science and nature. And just all the things that bring the flavor and joy that we have in our lives, make those things better live your life in a way that makes other people's lives better. Thanks so much, Devin for coming on the show. I really thoroughly enjoyed talking with him. It is great. We may try to have him back on some time to talk more about where the worlds and what it's like to be a high school teacher. In this craziness that is this year, thanks to the texas tech department of plant and soil science as always for the support. And for just letting me do this craziness, I had a conversation with my department head recently, and this may get worked into my official job description. So that's kind of crazy and amazing and really cool. Thanks to everyone that listens and supports the show. If you want to be a supporter of the show, go check out patreon.com slash plant typology. Just a couple of bucks, get your sticker and some other stuff. And really just a way to keep all of the science coming. Y'all are the best. I can't wait to talk to you here in a couple of weeks. Our next episode will be on September 1. And it will be an episode with someone about something which is about as specific as I can get at the moment because I'm not sure what it's going to be. But it's gonna be great. I can tell you that for sure. Thank you. Y'all are cool. You're the best You make this worth doing. Take care of yourselves. Stay safe and I'll talk to you next time. Transcribed by https://otter.ai